One of the many - not that I saw them- but I've heard report..
Friday, September 17, 2010
Sunday, August 22, 2010
Redaction criticism
Mark and compiling- Redaction criticism – can you elevate this to an unhelpful prominence? The Gospel writers were upfront in what they were trying to do- tell the good news of Jesus Christ; John's 'these are written so that you might believe'. There are different emphases among them- and it is right to consider how and why they are editing the way they are. Sometimes it feels like too much weight is given to this editing process- that this was the main thing dictating what went in and how it was told- what pericope surrounded other pericopes. And I suppose chronology wasn't always the writers chief guide for where they inserted things. Still, I think in the gospels that actual happening is a very strong influence over how the story is told- and it is important not to lose sight of this when thinking about how the work has been redacted.
It is also by its nature a slightly speculative enterprise. And perhaps this isn't always reflected in the language the scholars used to describe it.
It is also by its nature a slightly speculative enterprise. And perhaps this isn't always reflected in the language the scholars used to describe it.
kai huperperissws exeplessonto...- 7:31-37
kai huperperissws exeplessonto...
huperperissws is an adverb- 'beyond all measure' (Z&G) and the verb that it qualifies is exeplessonto; was being astounded, overwhelmed, as it were “struck outside” oneself.
BDAG has for ekplessw- to cause to be filled with amazement to the point of being overwhelmed, amaze, astound, overwhelm (lit. strike out of one's senses)
One of the beauties of the gospel accounts is how they describe amazing events in very down to earth ways. There is no sensationalism. It does not feel as we read, that we are in the region of fantasy, fairy tale or legend. It feels that we are in the world of human happenings (distinct, I would imagine to the majority of religious writings through the world). As a result, it is possible to read through Mark and miss some of his spare sentences that give a sense of the sensation that Jesus created. This is one example. Mark says that people were in effect, beyond all measure filled with amazement to the point of being overwhelmed. The verb is powerful enough on its own to convey a strong reaction of increduality- they were being astounded, overwhelmed. Mark then adds to that strong reaction a 'beyond all measure'.
If we are seeing this through Peter's eyes, perhaps by this stage he has been to the place where the onlookers are at the moment many times. Perhaps this wasn't quite as amazing for him as it was for them, and looking on he sees all this increduality, and perhaps looking back sympathises with it more than he did at the time... Or perhaps he is bigger hearted than that (and Peter does seem to be big hearted) and he rejoices that others are being thrilled by Jesus as he had and is... although Peter's response to this was far deeper than most of the crowd. He had well and truly been 'caught' – had thrown his lot in with this man almost completely, was not just an excited spectator in the stands. Perhaps he is just telling the story- simply recording what happened.
huperperissws is an adverb- 'beyond all measure' (Z&G) and the verb that it qualifies is exeplessonto; was being astounded, overwhelmed, as it were “struck outside” oneself.
BDAG has for ekplessw- to cause to be filled with amazement to the point of being overwhelmed, amaze, astound, overwhelm (lit. strike out of one's senses)
One of the beauties of the gospel accounts is how they describe amazing events in very down to earth ways. There is no sensationalism. It does not feel as we read, that we are in the region of fantasy, fairy tale or legend. It feels that we are in the world of human happenings (distinct, I would imagine to the majority of religious writings through the world). As a result, it is possible to read through Mark and miss some of his spare sentences that give a sense of the sensation that Jesus created. This is one example. Mark says that people were in effect, beyond all measure filled with amazement to the point of being overwhelmed. The verb is powerful enough on its own to convey a strong reaction of increduality- they were being astounded, overwhelmed. Mark then adds to that strong reaction a 'beyond all measure'.
If we are seeing this through Peter's eyes, perhaps by this stage he has been to the place where the onlookers are at the moment many times. Perhaps this wasn't quite as amazing for him as it was for them, and looking on he sees all this increduality, and perhaps looking back sympathises with it more than he did at the time... Or perhaps he is bigger hearted than that (and Peter does seem to be big hearted) and he rejoices that others are being thrilled by Jesus as he had and is... although Peter's response to this was far deeper than most of the crowd. He had well and truly been 'caught' – had thrown his lot in with this man almost completely, was not just an excited spectator in the stands. Perhaps he is just telling the story- simply recording what happened.
Lack of affronted dignity- 7:31
Back in the region of the Decapolis. It was here Jesus healed a creepy tomb wandering man, who was so strong he broke chains and couldn't be contained. Jesus wouldn't allow him to follow him, but told him to go back into the villages of the Decapolis and tell the people what the Lord had done for him. And unlike some people who ignored Jesus instructions after they had been healed, this man did it- 'and everyone was amazed'. By this stage the people of the Decapolis would have heard different reports about Jesus from a number of sources. Nearly the whole of Palestine must have known by Jesus now- the rumours meeting Herod's ears, the reports circulating back to the Sanhedrin, the mass of people who had heard and seen Jesus in action. In a world with no mass media, it doesn't get much bigger than this on a provincial national scale. And along with these different lines of communication is added the testimony of the man who once called himself 'legion'. For some he may have acted a bit like a fore runner.
It doesn't seem to take long after Jesus arrives in the region for a crowd to form, and for people to bring a deaf man who spoke with difficulty and was almost deaf (Z &G). Jesus takes him away from the crowd and heals him.
At this point he seems to have a bad day teacher moment- 'Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.' There's something slightly reassuring about this. I have had many situations in teaching or looking after kids, where I've had these sort of situations. It's good to know Jesus in his togetherness (no one else comes close to a proper togetherness), has shamozzles like this in his experience. On the flip side, its not something I like; giving directions and having them ignored, and there's a part of that where that's fair enough- it is necessary for students to obey a teacher, otherwise its not going to work- but there's another part where I take it as a personal affront, and I suspect more than I need to- a bit touchy about my own dignity. Jesus gives many amazing displays of not being touchy about his own dignity- though he is the God of the universe, the promised Messiah, the embodiment of God's love for Israel. His 'do you know who I am' type moments, are never given in that affronted dignity way. -If you knew who I am, you'd ask for living water... But who do you say that I am?.... You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above... Father forgive them they know not what they do...
Slightly different vibe- but still not affronted dignity,
I tell you that one greater than the temple is here...
and now one greater than Jonah is here..
and now one greater than Solomon is here...
It doesn't seem to take long after Jesus arrives in the region for a crowd to form, and for people to bring a deaf man who spoke with difficulty and was almost deaf (Z &G). Jesus takes him away from the crowd and heals him.
At this point he seems to have a bad day teacher moment- 'Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.' There's something slightly reassuring about this. I have had many situations in teaching or looking after kids, where I've had these sort of situations. It's good to know Jesus in his togetherness (no one else comes close to a proper togetherness), has shamozzles like this in his experience. On the flip side, its not something I like; giving directions and having them ignored, and there's a part of that where that's fair enough- it is necessary for students to obey a teacher, otherwise its not going to work- but there's another part where I take it as a personal affront, and I suspect more than I need to- a bit touchy about my own dignity. Jesus gives many amazing displays of not being touchy about his own dignity- though he is the God of the universe, the promised Messiah, the embodiment of God's love for Israel. His 'do you know who I am' type moments, are never given in that affronted dignity way. -If you knew who I am, you'd ask for living water... But who do you say that I am?.... You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above... Father forgive them they know not what they do...
Slightly different vibe- but still not affronted dignity,
I tell you that one greater than the temple is here...
and now one greater than Jonah is here..
and now one greater than Solomon is here...
Isaiah 9
9
But there will be no gloom for those who were in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.
The people walked in darkness
have seen a great light
those who lived in a land of deep darkness-
on them light has shined.
You have multiplied the nation,
you have increased its joy;
they rejoice before you
as with joy at the harvest,
as people exult when dividing plunder.
For the yoke of their burden,
and the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor,
you have broken as on the day of Midian.
For all the boots of the tramping warriors
and all the garments rolled in blood
shall be burned as fuel for the fire.
For a child has been born for us,
a son give to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdom.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.
But there will be no gloom for those who were in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.
The people walked in darkness
have seen a great light
those who lived in a land of deep darkness-
on them light has shined.
You have multiplied the nation,
you have increased its joy;
they rejoice before you
as with joy at the harvest,
as people exult when dividing plunder.
For the yoke of their burden,
and the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor,
you have broken as on the day of Midian.
For all the boots of the tramping warriors
and all the garments rolled in blood
shall be burned as fuel for the fire.
For a child has been born for us,
a son give to us;
authority rests upon his shoulders;
and he is named Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdom.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.
Forseen incarnation
Who could have forseen the incarnation?
Isaiah did. Is this part of what he is talking about when he quotes Yahweh, “From this time forward I make you hear new things, hidden things that you have not known. They are created now, not long ago' before today, you have never heard of them, so that you could not say, “I already knew them.” You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened....
A whole lot more, then, -And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit. Although before it talks about performing his purpose on Babylon and his arm being against the Chaldeans.
Isaiah did. Is this part of what he is talking about when he quotes Yahweh, “From this time forward I make you hear new things, hidden things that you have not known. They are created now, not long ago' before today, you have never heard of them, so that you could not say, “I already knew them.” You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened....
A whole lot more, then, -And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit. Although before it talks about performing his purpose on Babylon and his arm being against the Chaldeans.
Tuesday, August 10, 2010
My sister can't be God, for we have shared an unearthly burp together
Here, the disciples and Jesus family (and also the people he grew up with), have an advantage. They got to share life with him, to see unguarded moments, to share in the talk of the table, or wherever they were eating that night. -To see him in a more balanced way than many of the crowd. It is an incredibly hard idea to get your head around, to be both human and divine. Not many try to claim it- and virtually none on the scale Jesus did; not just divine, but the Almighty God who created the universe. Those that come close, such as the Roman Emperors, people in mental institutions and perhaps Hindu gurus, usually have a massive credibility gap. People who have lost their minds can be ruled out straightaway- the other two groups (Empire divinity, and religious belief divinity) have some humility in their arrogance, and do not claim to be the God of all. They are gods, among other gods. They are usually proved all too human- the Roman Emperors with their sordid excesses, the son of the Hindu guru's testimony in Sadhu Singh's book. If you spend enough time (a few days or less would usually do it), rubbing shoulders with them, seeing them in unguarded moments, you'd have damning evidence against their case for divinity.
Jesus mother and his brother's and sister's come to believe he is the Yahweh who has been interacting with their people Israel for 2000 years. -Not without a struggle, as evidenced by their coming to take him in hand when his popularity first exploded. And this is not surprising- it is such a big idea. If you apply it to your own family you know it can't work. For a start, there's the primary relationship; no that can't be, because you are my sister or brother. Then there's the massive fact of their humaness, built up of all the shared life you have spent. In particular, this fact precludes divinity. How many examples could I give of Kylie's and Ainslie's falleness (I suspect they could find more for me- but I am older). But even all those sweet moments you share- the family joke, the unearthly burp somewhere past Albury, being there after kids come into the world- sit there as this strong testimony against the other being divine- it has been such a joy to be human together.
So, whereas many people in the story at this point are struggling to get a grip on Jesus because of all the miracles, his family are coming from the opposite direction, struggling to reconcile the brother or the son they know and grew up with, with these wonders and crowds. It was probably playing with the disciples heads as well- or perhaps starting to. Jesus was so human.
Jesus mother and his brother's and sister's come to believe he is the Yahweh who has been interacting with their people Israel for 2000 years. -Not without a struggle, as evidenced by their coming to take him in hand when his popularity first exploded. And this is not surprising- it is such a big idea. If you apply it to your own family you know it can't work. For a start, there's the primary relationship; no that can't be, because you are my sister or brother. Then there's the massive fact of their humaness, built up of all the shared life you have spent. In particular, this fact precludes divinity. How many examples could I give of Kylie's and Ainslie's falleness (I suspect they could find more for me- but I am older). But even all those sweet moments you share- the family joke, the unearthly burp somewhere past Albury, being there after kids come into the world- sit there as this strong testimony against the other being divine- it has been such a joy to be human together.
So, whereas many people in the story at this point are struggling to get a grip on Jesus because of all the miracles, his family are coming from the opposite direction, struggling to reconcile the brother or the son they know and grew up with, with these wonders and crowds. It was probably playing with the disciples heads as well- or perhaps starting to. Jesus was so human.
The murky place between man and God- 7:31-37
They make it down to the region of the Decapolis- I don't think it was a particularly Jewish area- still lying low... And some concerned friends or family members of a deaf and almost mute man (interesting the little detail that he could hardly talk), bring him to Jesus and beg him to place his hand on him. Jesus doesn't want a scene and takes the man away from the crowd. After he had healed him, he commands 'them' not to tell anyone- which is one area where Jesus authority doesn't hold very well. Many of the healings seem to have a similar sort of feel. People know that he has this amazing power, so they bring either loved ones or themselves and ask him to heal them. He does not particularly seem to go looking for people to heal. And he tries to do it as discreetly as possible- although some situations prevent this- the man with the withered hand and through the ceiling man. It looks like Jesus did not want the healings to become a circus- which drowned out everything else. Interesting that in Josephus he is described as a wonder worker, or something like that. Indeed, in John especially, he has some strong things to say about signs, and the way people run after them. The word sign 'semeion' that John uses for miracles, shows how John thinks they should be thought of- pointers to something else, to something beyond. And this was a very real problem for Jesus, or more accurately many people. Many, did not treat him as a real person. He was an 'attraction' something to flock to. He did everything well and people loved to go and see him in action. In the end they struggled with precisely the same issue many do today with Jesus- by holding him in this category between 'man' and 'God'. He did amazing things- the people loved that- He was saying dangerous things- the pharisees didn't like that- and because of the wonders he was seen as a real threat. So they crucified him for acting more than a mere man, and claiming to be God.
Out of Israel- 7:31
Again specifically states the 'vicinity' or 'region' of Tyre- which he leaves and goes further north 'through' the city of Sidon. Perhaps 30 km at a rough guess from a smallish map. It does look like a 'breathing space' trip. Sidon was another port city of Phoenicia- it was renown as a centre of Philosophical learning (New bible Dictionary)- a largely greek population. And Jesus just passes through. The geographical focus certainly is on Israel. The few times he is out of Israel (Egypt, Tyre, Sidon and Samaria) are all significant. I imagine Egypt with Tommo's Jesus enacting Israel or the OT idea “out of Egypt I called my son' (perhaps I should say Matthew's idea), Phoenicia for the answer Jesus didn't mean, and the action he did, and Samaria for a robust reversal of the good Samaritan story.
He possibly went through Caesarea Phillipi on the way down to Galilee and the area of the Decapolis. Looks like there was a major road that came across from the coast. This looks like it would be a fair journey on foot- at least 5 days? I wonder what this journey was like? Wonder what the disciples were feeling? Opposition from powerful forces are increasing- it looks like they could be on the run for awhile. There's a fair bit of time they have together on the road- also time for just getting on with the walking and space to be alone in that- and think. I wonder if an underlying tension is rising in the group.
He possibly went through Caesarea Phillipi on the way down to Galilee and the area of the Decapolis. Looks like there was a major road that came across from the coast. This looks like it would be a fair journey on foot- at least 5 days? I wonder what this journey was like? Wonder what the disciples were feeling? Opposition from powerful forces are increasing- it looks like they could be on the run for awhile. There's a fair bit of time they have together on the road- also time for just getting on with the walking and space to be alone in that- and think. I wonder if an underlying tension is rising in the group.
Monday, August 2, 2010
New things- 7:24-30
From Isaiah 49,
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”
Back in 48 Isaiah writes for Yahweh,
“From now on I will tell you of new things,
of hidden things unknown to you.
They are created now and not long ago;
you have not heard of them before today.
So you cannot say,
'Yes, I knew of them.'
You have neither heard nor understood;
from of old your ear has not being open.
I'm not sure, but the 'servant note' seems to be the new thing. -An added layer to the Messiah chord. Certainly there were not many Jews who had truly 'heard' of Jesus when he turned up. For many he did key into many things in their tradition- but for most it was not in the way they expected. And in particular this seems to be the unexpected part- Peter pulling Jesus aside to rebuke him when he speaks of his death. - the picture that seems to be in James and John's head when they ask for the places of honour beside Jesus in his 'glory'.
And you capture something of the flavour of these verses in Jesus frustration that people (in particular the disciples), just don't get it. -Do you still not understand?, are you so dull? O unbelieving generation, how long shall I put up with you?
I imagine you can't really understand these verses or the weight of Jesus frustration without realising he is tapping into a long history of Yahweh's frustration with a people with a 'neck with sinews of iron, and a forehead of bronze'. (Is 48)
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”
Back in 48 Isaiah writes for Yahweh,
“From now on I will tell you of new things,
of hidden things unknown to you.
They are created now and not long ago;
you have not heard of them before today.
So you cannot say,
'Yes, I knew of them.'
You have neither heard nor understood;
from of old your ear has not being open.
I'm not sure, but the 'servant note' seems to be the new thing. -An added layer to the Messiah chord. Certainly there were not many Jews who had truly 'heard' of Jesus when he turned up. For many he did key into many things in their tradition- but for most it was not in the way they expected. And in particular this seems to be the unexpected part- Peter pulling Jesus aside to rebuke him when he speaks of his death. - the picture that seems to be in James and John's head when they ask for the places of honour beside Jesus in his 'glory'.
And you capture something of the flavour of these verses in Jesus frustration that people (in particular the disciples), just don't get it. -Do you still not understand?, are you so dull? O unbelieving generation, how long shall I put up with you?
I imagine you can't really understand these verses or the weight of Jesus frustration without realising he is tapping into a long history of Yahweh's frustration with a people with a 'neck with sinews of iron, and a forehead of bronze'. (Is 48)
Thrill of the challenge- 7:27-30
Jesus is ready to challenge the woman- He challenges in many different ways- in the end his ability to do this and tell uncomfortable truths/ ask unanswerable questions/ be wise brings everyone else to a standstill- they cannot argue against him (Mk 12:34).
Jesus reaction to the woman's answer is telling- “On account of this word (Z&G 'for saying that') you may go home (upage- normally I would have thought that would have thought that would have just been the imperative for depart- I wonder where the home part comes from) the demon has gone out of your daughter. I think her tenacity and wisdom have made him glad- in a sense won him. So, he roams around the countryside giving out these challenges- and when people rise to them, it thrills him. The 72 return and Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” (Lk 10:21)
Jesus reaction to the woman's answer is telling- “On account of this word (Z&G 'for saying that') you may go home (upage- normally I would have thought that would have thought that would have just been the imperative for depart- I wonder where the home part comes from) the demon has gone out of your daughter. I think her tenacity and wisdom have made him glad- in a sense won him. So, he roams around the countryside giving out these challenges- and when people rise to them, it thrills him. The 72 return and Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” (Lk 10:21)
Jesus giving answers he doesn't mean- 7:24-30
This woman immediately (euthus) upon hearing of Jesus arrival, came and fell at his feet. How did Jesus know the woman was not a Jew. They weren't in Jewish territory- would there still have been some Jews that lived in the region- I imagine so. Was it the fact she spoke in Greek rather than aramaic? Or did he ask more questions than we have in the account. Somehow it has come up that she was born in Syrian Phoenicia- so perhaps not far away or a bit further up the coast. Apparently there is much that is irregular in her approach in Jewish culture- and in Jesus response (that he is willing to make a response). This is probably a passage where this sort of context is crucial- The situation is not as harsh as it reads. Jesus was sent to the children of Israel- there was a long history intertwined with Yahweh- they were his chosen people, in a way no other people were. But in another cultural blindspot for the pharisees- the reason for this was so that the 'dogs could eat the food from the children's table'. So Jesus here gives a good rabinical answer- that he of course does not mean. He knows the privilege of the Jewish people. But there are other sheep not of this sheep pen- and they will listen to his voice. The 'Jews' ending up killing Jesus- which contrasts starkly with the humility of this woman- I will take whatever scraps I can get.
Tuesday, July 27, 2010
France on Tyre- 7
From France on Tyre, (p297)
Mark does not tell us that Jesus visited Tyre itself, merely its 'horia' (region), the administrative district for which it was responsible. Mark's Jesus (is this a comparison to John's Gospel and Jesus's trips to Jerusalem?) is not generally a frequenter of cities, still less pagan ones, but remains out in the countryside (cf. 8.27) Tyre, whose territory adjoined northern Galilee, had long been an important trading city. It had close links with Palestine, particularly under Herod the Great, and its coinage was widely circulated there; indeed, it exercised considerable economic dominance over the neighbouring area of Galilee (Stock 210- 13). But it was clearly foreign territory, and Josephus, Ap. 1.70, describes the Tyrians as 'notoriously our bitterest enemies'.
Mark does not tell us that Jesus visited Tyre itself, merely its 'horia' (region), the administrative district for which it was responsible. Mark's Jesus (is this a comparison to John's Gospel and Jesus's trips to Jerusalem?) is not generally a frequenter of cities, still less pagan ones, but remains out in the countryside (cf. 8.27) Tyre, whose territory adjoined northern Galilee, had long been an important trading city. It had close links with Palestine, particularly under Herod the Great, and its coinage was widely circulated there; indeed, it exercised considerable economic dominance over the neighbouring area of Galilee (Stock 210- 13). But it was clearly foreign territory, and Josephus, Ap. 1.70, describes the Tyrians as 'notoriously our bitterest enemies'.
Isaiah interlude- 7
Isaiah 28: 9ff
“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining this message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there.”
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”-
but they wouldn't listen.
So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a littler here, a little there-
so that they will go and fall backwards,
be injured and snared and captured.
Therefore hear the word of the LORD you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have make a lie our refuge
and falsehood our hiding place.”
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie
and water will overflow your hiding place....
I thought that may have related to the pharisees- the do and do, do and do,- rule on rule, rule on rule. But I'm not sure.
The passage Jesus quotes is the chapter after- 28 has been to Ephraim and 29 is to Ariel – David's city ( I assume Jerusalem). The LORD says,
“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honour me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.
(the Septuagint has the form found in Mark- They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men)
“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining this message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there.”
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”-
but they wouldn't listen.
So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a littler here, a little there-
so that they will go and fall backwards,
be injured and snared and captured.
Therefore hear the word of the LORD you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have make a lie our refuge
and falsehood our hiding place.”
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie
and water will overflow your hiding place....
I thought that may have related to the pharisees- the do and do, do and do,- rule on rule, rule on rule. But I'm not sure.
The passage Jesus quotes is the chapter after- 28 has been to Ephraim and 29 is to Ariel – David's city ( I assume Jerusalem). The LORD says,
“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honour me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.
(the Septuagint has the form found in Mark- They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men)
Jesus' faith unblind- 7:24
I just looked for the Glover quote about Jesus thoughts on goodness and evil- couldn't find it quickly- couldn't find the newer copy that Paul gave me.
NIV translates v24- Jesus left that place.. The greek is Ekeithen de anastas apelthen eis ta horia Turou
And he arose from there and went into the region of Tyre. I assume that's Capernaum to Tyre. By road perhaps 80km's at a rough guess from the atlas of the bible.. I'd think a three day journey- though they would have travelled pretty light. I wonder what time of year we are at. He enters into a house and wishes no one to know but is not able to escape notice. I wonder... He's just bluntly insulted the delegation from Jerusalem- they probably have their own three day journey back to give their report, and Jesus seems to feel the need for space between him and the Sanhedrin. As John would say- his time had not yet come- and that necessitated a geographical shift. If that is correct then it is interesting comment on faith, God's action and human action. Jesus has complete faith in the Father, but that does not mean at this stage that he walks into Jerusalem.
Remain in me- for apart from me you can do nothing/ The three men and the talents/ If you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
NIV translates v24- Jesus left that place.. The greek is Ekeithen de anastas apelthen eis ta horia Turou
And he arose from there and went into the region of Tyre. I assume that's Capernaum to Tyre. By road perhaps 80km's at a rough guess from the atlas of the bible.. I'd think a three day journey- though they would have travelled pretty light. I wonder what time of year we are at. He enters into a house and wishes no one to know but is not able to escape notice. I wonder... He's just bluntly insulted the delegation from Jerusalem- they probably have their own three day journey back to give their report, and Jesus seems to feel the need for space between him and the Sanhedrin. As John would say- his time had not yet come- and that necessitated a geographical shift. If that is correct then it is interesting comment on faith, God's action and human action. Jesus has complete faith in the Father, but that does not mean at this stage that he walks into Jerusalem.
Remain in me- for apart from me you can do nothing/ The three men and the talents/ If you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Cultural blindspots- 7:14-23
Back with the disciples and they cop a bit of plain speaking as well. Asunetoi- lacking in understanding dullwitted. BDAG- the noun sunesis (from suniemi) refers to bringing together of things or persons (juncture of two rivers, Hom. Od), then to inward organisation ('understanding'); one who lacks sunesis is void of understanding, senseless, foolish, implying also a lack of high moral quality.
So, in other words, the disciples haven't put two and two together very well at all here. And Jesus goes on to enunciate. It is interesting that the disciples didn't pick it up. The idea of ritual cleaness or uncleansess was very strong- the Jews had been (break of a day or two here) cured of their idolatorous ways by the exile- and the pharisees had replaced this with another form of idolatory- the traditions of men. Peter had to be given another post resurrection lesson about this- Surely not Lord, I have never eaten anything impure or unclean. It was a big issue for the early church- interesting at the council of Jerusalem you had believers who belonged to the party of the pharisees standing up and saying “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the laws of Moses”.
I wonder what my blindspots are? The things so strongly imbedded in your culture (particularly your faith tradition) that you take for granted that someone could point out to you and you still wouldn't get it.
“All these evils come from inside (eswthen) and make a man unclean'.” Here is 'a' answer for where evil comes from- from within. I just looked up the concordance for references on the devil and Satan. Jesus certainly mentions him- and is tempted by him in the Desert. But in the course of the Gospel accounts there are not that many references- the “Get behind me Satan”- to Peter- and Satan entering Judas- but on the whole it is certainly not a focus. “The from within” certainly is. I'm sure that is instructive for the way we live pray and teach. It wasn't as though Jesus didn't come up against the demonic either. He was often casting out demons and ordering them to be silent.
Come back to this..
So, in other words, the disciples haven't put two and two together very well at all here. And Jesus goes on to enunciate. It is interesting that the disciples didn't pick it up. The idea of ritual cleaness or uncleansess was very strong- the Jews had been (break of a day or two here) cured of their idolatorous ways by the exile- and the pharisees had replaced this with another form of idolatory- the traditions of men. Peter had to be given another post resurrection lesson about this- Surely not Lord, I have never eaten anything impure or unclean. It was a big issue for the early church- interesting at the council of Jerusalem you had believers who belonged to the party of the pharisees standing up and saying “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the laws of Moses”.
I wonder what my blindspots are? The things so strongly imbedded in your culture (particularly your faith tradition) that you take for granted that someone could point out to you and you still wouldn't get it.
“All these evils come from inside (eswthen) and make a man unclean'.” Here is 'a' answer for where evil comes from- from within. I just looked up the concordance for references on the devil and Satan. Jesus certainly mentions him- and is tempted by him in the Desert. But in the course of the Gospel accounts there are not that many references- the “Get behind me Satan”- to Peter- and Satan entering Judas- but on the whole it is certainly not a focus. “The from within” certainly is. I'm sure that is instructive for the way we live pray and teach. It wasn't as though Jesus didn't come up against the demonic either. He was often casting out demons and ordering them to be silent.
Come back to this..
Upokrites- 7:1-13
They knew he was in Galilee and would have known or been able to find out that his base was at Capernaum. I suppose the delegation would have had more time to accomplish their mission than if it had have happened in the modern world. A three day trip up? I wonder who they stayed with? Probably pharisees known to them. -where they would have caught up on what Jesus had been up to- discussed the subversiveness of it. And I imagine they could have filled them in on where they would be most likely to find him the next day. I imagine for awhile now Jesus has been a watched man- not just the people and disciples, but in the sense of 'covered' – reports are going back- and now we have the city agents coming out.
And Jesus lets rip. There is no holding back- 'I know the game you are playing, and if I don't play this right I could get myself killed.' He quotes Isaiah at them (immediately turning the table on their world) and says that they are on the outside- hypocrites- stage actors with a device in their mask for augmenting the force of the voice. (what a brilliant image for a hypocrite)- Vine. And then with forceful and direct insight- “You have let go of commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.
Then he gives them an example of this- and turns his attention to the crowd. And I bet there loving it- for they would know all about the pharisees political correctness- and I'm sure many Galileans would resent it.
And Jesus lets rip. There is no holding back- 'I know the game you are playing, and if I don't play this right I could get myself killed.' He quotes Isaiah at them (immediately turning the table on their world) and says that they are on the outside- hypocrites- stage actors with a device in their mask for augmenting the force of the voice. (what a brilliant image for a hypocrite)- Vine. And then with forceful and direct insight- “You have let go of commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.
Then he gives them an example of this- and turns his attention to the crowd. And I bet there loving it- for they would know all about the pharisees political correctness- and I'm sure many Galileans would resent it.
How good is self forgetfulness- Chapter 7
I wonder exactly where we are at chronologically at the moment. The opposition of the pharisees has grown to such an extant that they are sending up delegations from Jerusalem to check on him. Interesting that as well as the pharisees we have 'some of the scribes'. And then what follows is something that at times could be an issue for me. It's the other side of the coin to thinking Westlakes is not rigorous enough in their approach to the bible. I imagine I'd be on the pharisees and scribes side on this. There can be a pride that comes with a level of competence or mastery (for those that get there). And as Tozer was writing the other night, there can be that looking over the shoulder thing as well- hoping that people are noticing your competence. He took a similar incident to this one and commented how the pharisees were more concerned with the opinion of man than of pursuing God.
How good is self forgetfulness. Even with this blog, I can have that 'this is good stuff- they are some very good insights' type thing. -so it is fortunate that no-one is reading it. - and telling me that or the opposite. You can somehow live your life out there- with an eye on what other people think, and sometimes an awareness that you are talented in a particular area as well, so with your eye out to confirm that through others. I had a text from a couple at church telling me how they appreciated my wise comments on the panel at church. It was flattering. I think I've broached this before in this amazing blog- there are dangers there in that moment- of pride in a God given talent, or fear of the talent or the recognition it may bring. I wonder where Paul went with all of this? One thing is he probably didn't get too much time to do too much introspection. It may be a particularly 20/21st century phenomena, and he was busy in the task, not sitting in a monastry with a beautiful view. But he talks of coming to the Corinthians was it? In trembling with no flash message- just Christ crucified, no eloquent words, just the power of the gospel. Elsewhere he talks about having reasons to boast- and says he has more than most- and has seen glorious visions- talks about a man caught up to the third heaven (what's going on there?) - My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” So I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong.
Treasures in jars of clay, that need to lose our lives so that we may find them. Like Edmund who seemed to forget himself even though he had stuffed up majorly and put everything in jeopardy- he just kept looking at Aslan. And the spirit of Luke 17- what else would a slave do? You are making a big deal out of the ordinary.
Mr Macdonald understood it...
“The love our neighbour is the only door out of the dungeon of self, where we mope and mow, striking sparks, and rubbing phosphorescences out of the walls, and blowing our own breath in our own nostrils, instead of issuing to the fair sunlight of God, the sweet winds of the universe.”
“...She was looking gloomy, and his father was silent; and indeed except Diamond had done all he possible could to keep out the misery that was trying to get in at doors and windows, he too would have grown miserable, and then they would have been miserable together. But to try and make others comfortable is the only way to get right comfortable ourselves, and that comes partly from not being able to think of ourselves when we are helping other people. For our Selves will always do pretty well if we don't pay them too much attention. Our Selves are like some children who will be happy enough so long as they are left to their own games, but when we begin to interfere with them, and make them presents of too nice play things, or too many sweets they begin at once to fret and spoil.”
How did this take place? In some public place, where the pharisees and scribes had opportunity to gather around him.
How good is self forgetfulness. Even with this blog, I can have that 'this is good stuff- they are some very good insights' type thing. -so it is fortunate that no-one is reading it. - and telling me that or the opposite. You can somehow live your life out there- with an eye on what other people think, and sometimes an awareness that you are talented in a particular area as well, so with your eye out to confirm that through others. I had a text from a couple at church telling me how they appreciated my wise comments on the panel at church. It was flattering. I think I've broached this before in this amazing blog- there are dangers there in that moment- of pride in a God given talent, or fear of the talent or the recognition it may bring. I wonder where Paul went with all of this? One thing is he probably didn't get too much time to do too much introspection. It may be a particularly 20/21st century phenomena, and he was busy in the task, not sitting in a monastry with a beautiful view. But he talks of coming to the Corinthians was it? In trembling with no flash message- just Christ crucified, no eloquent words, just the power of the gospel. Elsewhere he talks about having reasons to boast- and says he has more than most- and has seen glorious visions- talks about a man caught up to the third heaven (what's going on there?) - My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” So I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong.
Treasures in jars of clay, that need to lose our lives so that we may find them. Like Edmund who seemed to forget himself even though he had stuffed up majorly and put everything in jeopardy- he just kept looking at Aslan. And the spirit of Luke 17- what else would a slave do? You are making a big deal out of the ordinary.
Mr Macdonald understood it...
“The love our neighbour is the only door out of the dungeon of self, where we mope and mow, striking sparks, and rubbing phosphorescences out of the walls, and blowing our own breath in our own nostrils, instead of issuing to the fair sunlight of God, the sweet winds of the universe.”
“...She was looking gloomy, and his father was silent; and indeed except Diamond had done all he possible could to keep out the misery that was trying to get in at doors and windows, he too would have grown miserable, and then they would have been miserable together. But to try and make others comfortable is the only way to get right comfortable ourselves, and that comes partly from not being able to think of ourselves when we are helping other people. For our Selves will always do pretty well if we don't pay them too much attention. Our Selves are like some children who will be happy enough so long as they are left to their own games, but when we begin to interfere with them, and make them presents of too nice play things, or too many sweets they begin at once to fret and spoil.”
How did this take place? In some public place, where the pharisees and scribes had opportunity to gather around him.
Something big in their midst- 6:53-56
They cross over the lake and land and anchor at Gennesaret. This doesn't add up- Jesus had told the disciples to go ahead of him to Bethsaida, and Bethsaida is on the other side of the lake to Gennesaret. (Capernaum in the middle and Bethsaida on the East and Gennesaret on the west- they're all in the Northern section of the lake).
Not surprisingly at this point in the story, people see him and run about spreading the news- and wherever he goes in the region this news system insures a steady stream of the sick being brought to him. This must be the height of his popularity. France points out in comparison to Nazareth, there were many healings.
At least 8000 would have been at the miraculous meal on the shores of the lake- that's a lot of people in that region with an amazing story to tell.
Mark gives us a little summary to conclude this section and finishes with- (NIV) They begged him to let them touch even the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed.
You have to be a little sympathetic to the people of Nazareth. They'd seen this man grow up- be among them – one of them- the Carpenter's son, for over 20 years. And there was no hint of any this. How could he be that, when he has been this all these years? Here is a prophet who is eclipsing the greatest prophets of old- Elijah and Elisha. Miracles of these dimensions had not been seen in Israel for hundreds of years. Just being able to brush his cloak as he walks past would heal you of ailments you'd had for years- It reads like some sort of fantasy- It's fantastic- and Mark puts it in a quick summary. Stuff like this can pretty easily obscure. For far too long in my life I have had an idea of Jesus being somehow less or more than a man, which diminishes the glory of the incarnation.
-
Where are we at here in terms of the pharisees and scribes opposition?
Not surprisingly at this point in the story, people see him and run about spreading the news- and wherever he goes in the region this news system insures a steady stream of the sick being brought to him. This must be the height of his popularity. France points out in comparison to Nazareth, there were many healings.
At least 8000 would have been at the miraculous meal on the shores of the lake- that's a lot of people in that region with an amazing story to tell.
Mark gives us a little summary to conclude this section and finishes with- (NIV) They begged him to let them touch even the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed.
You have to be a little sympathetic to the people of Nazareth. They'd seen this man grow up- be among them – one of them- the Carpenter's son, for over 20 years. And there was no hint of any this. How could he be that, when he has been this all these years? Here is a prophet who is eclipsing the greatest prophets of old- Elijah and Elisha. Miracles of these dimensions had not been seen in Israel for hundreds of years. Just being able to brush his cloak as he walks past would heal you of ailments you'd had for years- It reads like some sort of fantasy- It's fantastic- and Mark puts it in a quick summary. Stuff like this can pretty easily obscure. For far too long in my life I have had an idea of Jesus being somehow less or more than a man, which diminishes the glory of the incarnation.
-
Where are we at here in terms of the pharisees and scribes opposition?
Sunday, June 6, 2010
Cold miracles- 6:49-52
but when they saw him walking upon the sea it seemed/they thought, that he was a ghost and they cried out. For they all saw him and were frightened.
You have to feel for the disciples here- there can't be too many people that have had similar experiences. Perhaps some of the Israelites- perhaps it was a bit of a similar thing to when they asked Moses to put a veil over his face because it shone with the presence of the Lord. There seems to be a similar dread here. Only a few hours before they had been sitting around with a few thousand of their countrymen in a convivial atmosphere (admittedly, Jesus had just turned two loaves and five fish into this feast- so somewhere there was that hint of the numinous; as Lewis talks about it rather than the definition I just read in the concise Oxford Dictionary- so that though the atmosphere is enjoyable and relaxed, a step away without perhaps the people really realising it, is a tinge of terror)
Still, multiplying loaves and fishes is a warm miracle. Walking on a lake on a windswept lake at night is not.
Just read France on this verse- he says the fourth watch of the night is just before morning, and suggests the evening at the start of this passage should be interpreted loosely- he also uses the word numinous, which I thought I was being a bit tricky using- (a total aside but this is another Romans 12, Luke 17 situation- Lewis has a great take on originality- a good grounding for people like me who sometimes feel the glory of seeming to be a bit original).
The outlook has switched from Jesus to the disciples- where he views them struggling on the lake in the distance, they see an apparition being where it should not, coming towards them, or perhaps looking like he's going to walk past them. I wonder who saw him first. How much light was there? Enough for Jesus to see them from the hills out in the middle of the lake. They'd mostly be looking back his way straining at the oars- would have been very tired by this stage. Would there have been a few double takes? Who cried out first? Did a few make the disturbing discovery at the same time? How on earth could they get a handle on him? They must have had many experiences of him as a strong earthy man- a Carpenter with an abiding love of the scriptures, who talked about Yahweh in a way they had never quite heard. He spoke with authority- the religious leaders could not match him- but they shared a camp-fire with him, slept under stars- and here he was walking across the sea- They've already asked, “Who then is this?” after he told a storm to be still- but this seems to take it one step further- how many expletives were uttered through this passage of time, audibly or under the breath? What were there prayers? - here and throughout these three years? What were Jesus prayers? No wonder they asked Jesus to teach them how to pray. And I've conked out- but what is the Father thinking as he hears these prays and is answering them?
And immediately he spoke with them and said to them, 'have courage. it is I ( I am- egw eimi) Do not fear'. And he climbed/ got into (anebe) the boat with them, and the wind dropped. (Once again the disciples are long way into eery). And they were very beside themselves with astonishment- there's an 'en eautois' -within themselves. Z & G- stupefied, astounded-existanto.- It would seem the idea here is that they are experiencing an extremely high levels of amazement.
for they had not understood about the loaves, but there hearts were hardened.
What an interesting postscript or narrators sentence- was it Peter who used to say this after recounting the story- or Mark with the benefit of hindsight- perhaps a bit of both?
That is a very difficult thing to get your head and your fear around- and Jesus, although not as harshly this time, says to them to take courage and not fear.
Why were the disciples hearts hardened?
I would think it would be linked with faith. Though they had seen Jesus do this amazing thing with bread, because their faith was nowhere near large enough to fit him in, they were prevented in 'seeing' his ability and potential. Post resurrection, I imagine these same disciples (or at least some of them) would have sat in their boat, perhaps still in awe- and with the fear that accompanies that, but with no small minded idea that they were seeing a ghost- their faith had enlarged enough to take in a messiah who had complete mastery of the sea.
You have to feel for the disciples here- there can't be too many people that have had similar experiences. Perhaps some of the Israelites- perhaps it was a bit of a similar thing to when they asked Moses to put a veil over his face because it shone with the presence of the Lord. There seems to be a similar dread here. Only a few hours before they had been sitting around with a few thousand of their countrymen in a convivial atmosphere (admittedly, Jesus had just turned two loaves and five fish into this feast- so somewhere there was that hint of the numinous; as Lewis talks about it rather than the definition I just read in the concise Oxford Dictionary- so that though the atmosphere is enjoyable and relaxed, a step away without perhaps the people really realising it, is a tinge of terror)
Still, multiplying loaves and fishes is a warm miracle. Walking on a lake on a windswept lake at night is not.
Just read France on this verse- he says the fourth watch of the night is just before morning, and suggests the evening at the start of this passage should be interpreted loosely- he also uses the word numinous, which I thought I was being a bit tricky using- (a total aside but this is another Romans 12, Luke 17 situation- Lewis has a great take on originality- a good grounding for people like me who sometimes feel the glory of seeming to be a bit original).
The outlook has switched from Jesus to the disciples- where he views them struggling on the lake in the distance, they see an apparition being where it should not, coming towards them, or perhaps looking like he's going to walk past them. I wonder who saw him first. How much light was there? Enough for Jesus to see them from the hills out in the middle of the lake. They'd mostly be looking back his way straining at the oars- would have been very tired by this stage. Would there have been a few double takes? Who cried out first? Did a few make the disturbing discovery at the same time? How on earth could they get a handle on him? They must have had many experiences of him as a strong earthy man- a Carpenter with an abiding love of the scriptures, who talked about Yahweh in a way they had never quite heard. He spoke with authority- the religious leaders could not match him- but they shared a camp-fire with him, slept under stars- and here he was walking across the sea- They've already asked, “Who then is this?” after he told a storm to be still- but this seems to take it one step further- how many expletives were uttered through this passage of time, audibly or under the breath? What were there prayers? - here and throughout these three years? What were Jesus prayers? No wonder they asked Jesus to teach them how to pray. And I've conked out- but what is the Father thinking as he hears these prays and is answering them?
And immediately he spoke with them and said to them, 'have courage. it is I ( I am- egw eimi) Do not fear'. And he climbed/ got into (anebe) the boat with them, and the wind dropped. (Once again the disciples are long way into eery). And they were very beside themselves with astonishment- there's an 'en eautois' -within themselves. Z & G- stupefied, astounded-existanto.- It would seem the idea here is that they are experiencing an extremely high levels of amazement.
for they had not understood about the loaves, but there hearts were hardened.
What an interesting postscript or narrators sentence- was it Peter who used to say this after recounting the story- or Mark with the benefit of hindsight- perhaps a bit of both?
That is a very difficult thing to get your head and your fear around- and Jesus, although not as harshly this time, says to them to take courage and not fear.
Why were the disciples hearts hardened?
I would think it would be linked with faith. Though they had seen Jesus do this amazing thing with bread, because their faith was nowhere near large enough to fit him in, they were prevented in 'seeing' his ability and potential. Post resurrection, I imagine these same disciples (or at least some of them) would have sat in their boat, perhaps still in awe- and with the fear that accompanies that, but with no small minded idea that they were seeing a ghost- their faith had enlarged enough to take in a messiah who had complete mastery of the sea.
Lake-walking- 6:47-48
Evening finds the boat in the middle of the lake (sea- thalasses) and Jesus alone upon the land. The next bit seems to come from Jesus perspective- and he saw them harassed (basanizomenos- ptc pass. izw torture) / straining at the oars, for it was a contrary wind to them (head wind). About the fourth watch of the night he came towards them walking upon the sea, and intended to pass by them.
Had Peter questioned Jesus alone at some time about this? How did Mark know that Jesus intended to pass by them? Why did he intend to pass by? What was the thought process when he say them down on the middle of lake and decided to just walk across? He must have known that they would be terrified- or at least a little amazed when they saw him... Was he still in deep conversation/ communion with the Father and thought to continue that before he rejoined the disciples- so wasn't particularly thinking about what their reaction might be? Did Jesus experience a thrill as a man, walking across the waves? How did that work? It was a windy night- the disciples were making hard work of it against the wind- there must have been a fair bit of chop- did he walk on the water or just above it? -erchetai pros autous peripatwn epi tes thalasses – he came towards them walking upon the sea. How far back did his memory go? John has put things together by the time he writes- in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God, he was with God in beginning. All things came into being through him and not one thing came into being apart from him... Did Jesus have remembrances of creation? I would have thought not- that this was something he laid aside in becoming a man- but perhaps he somehow appropriated much that was formerly his through exercising faith, and sort of rediscovering it. Were there resonances of ancient times as he felt the wind and the chop on the water...?
Had Peter questioned Jesus alone at some time about this? How did Mark know that Jesus intended to pass by them? Why did he intend to pass by? What was the thought process when he say them down on the middle of lake and decided to just walk across? He must have known that they would be terrified- or at least a little amazed when they saw him... Was he still in deep conversation/ communion with the Father and thought to continue that before he rejoined the disciples- so wasn't particularly thinking about what their reaction might be? Did Jesus experience a thrill as a man, walking across the waves? How did that work? It was a windy night- the disciples were making hard work of it against the wind- there must have been a fair bit of chop- did he walk on the water or just above it? -erchetai pros autous peripatwn epi tes thalasses – he came towards them walking upon the sea. How far back did his memory go? John has put things together by the time he writes- in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God, he was with God in beginning. All things came into being through him and not one thing came into being apart from him... Did Jesus have remembrances of creation? I would have thought not- that this was something he laid aside in becoming a man- but perhaps he somehow appropriated much that was formerly his through exercising faith, and sort of rediscovering it. Were there resonances of ancient times as he felt the wind and the chop on the water...?
Response to success- 6:46
Perhaps another part of the sending them off before him, was his need to spend time alone with the Father. After he had taken his leave of the crowds, he goes into the hills to pray. Seems a pretty good response to 'success'. Feeding 5000 people is pretty miraculous. Two nights ago I had another panel appearance at church- some of the answers I gave, I thought were good- I had prayed beforehand, and then you have the event- the fluidness of the present, filled with possibilities, a mixture of a whole lot of things- the reading I have done, the people I've sat under, the experiences I've had- and a whole lot of other people with the same process going on, and the Spirit in and amongst. Thought I expressed something of Jesus mission- the Kingdom has come- we can experience something of God's future rule now- and now is what is important. Then I went to young adults group (I'm officially too old this month) and thought I directed things (not that I was officially leading) in good directions- what has been happening with you and God in the last month- the present story of you and the spirit rather than 'not that recent' testimonies. And I was thankful as I walked away from the study than night, that I'd been used in service- or had given a good service. It wouldn't have surprised me if there were some people that night in both places who were thankful for my contribution. And I'd say there is a danger in this moment. It is good to feel well utilised and that you have made a difference, or perhaps just done the Father's will- perhaps you can even accept a small 'well done faithful servant' from the spirit- but in the next moment I imagine we should think of Romans 12 or Luke 17- to have a sane estimate of ourselves and remember that we are servants- what else would we do- We shouldn't presume to sit down with the master and have some mutual admiration time- its inappropriate- doesn't fit with how things are- “We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty”.
Perhaps this was the main thing going on for Jesus at this time- a keen awareness of the strong tendency of man to be a glory hound. A determination to keep things in perspective. As John shows so well- a preoccupation and delight to do the Father's will above all else.
Perhaps this was the main thing going on for Jesus at this time- a keen awareness of the strong tendency of man to be a glory hound. A determination to keep things in perspective. As John shows so well- a preoccupation and delight to do the Father's will above all else.
A big day- 6:45
I have a note in my NIV bible about the immediately Mark starts this sentence with. Wrote this before I had any knowledge of Mark's proclivity towards the word. Apparently his sending of the apostles off to Bethsaida creates a few geographical issues- especially combined with the 'peran' (on the far side) of the lake. France thinks the best way to solve this may be to view Luke's parallel account as mistaken on this point. Without having looked at both, it seems more likely for a mistake to run that way- if we take Peter to be the main source for Mark's account- a man who spent a good part of his life on the lake, whereas Luke's knowledge could not be as deep, or maybe even first hand. Another solution that has been offered is that there was another Bethsaida apart from Bethsaida Julias on the North Eastern side of the lake. Bethsaida means simply fishing village- so it is not altogether unlikely- but there is no evidence apart for this.
Jesus stays behind to release or dismiss the crowd. I wonder if part of this is Jesus concern for the disciples (John's account could give another reason...). Perhaps still a little tired from their own adventures- and its been a big day, that Jesus was intending to be more recuperative, perhaps, for them. Also, he is the major attraction- so this would have also given the disciples a bit of a breather.
I wonder what their conversations in the boat were like. Or were they a bit beyond long excited conversations of amazement?- a little later when Jesus amazes them again, we have the phrase- ou gar sunekan epi tois artois, all' en autwn he kardia pepwrwmene. - 'for they had not understood (lit-on the occasion of...') about the loaves, i.e. what was involved in the multiplication of the loaves, what the miracle meant (Z&G), but their hearts were hardened- mentally insensitive, obtuse, dull.
I wonder how Peter told this?
Jesus stays behind to release or dismiss the crowd. I wonder if part of this is Jesus concern for the disciples (John's account could give another reason...). Perhaps still a little tired from their own adventures- and its been a big day, that Jesus was intending to be more recuperative, perhaps, for them. Also, he is the major attraction- so this would have also given the disciples a bit of a breather.
I wonder what their conversations in the boat were like. Or were they a bit beyond long excited conversations of amazement?- a little later when Jesus amazes them again, we have the phrase- ou gar sunekan epi tois artois, all' en autwn he kardia pepwrwmene. - 'for they had not understood (lit-on the occasion of...') about the loaves, i.e. what was involved in the multiplication of the loaves, what the miracle meant (Z&G), but their hearts were hardened- mentally insensitive, obtuse, dull.
I wonder how Peter told this?
Monday, May 24, 2010
Contented cows- 6:41-44
taking the five loaves and two fish he looked up to heaven, gave thanks and broke the bread into pieces and gave it to the disciples to set before the people (them) and he divided the two fish among them all.
I imagine the looking up into heaven is important. Perhaps Jesus always did this before a meal (what was the tradition among the Jews?) - does seem to say, this is not a solo act- acknowledging that all good things come from the Father.
After this, the big miracle- with no mention by Mark how amazing it was- or how amazing people in the crowds had found it.
Everybody eats and has their fill (echortasthesan- Z &G- satisfy with food, orig. only of feeding animals with e.g. hay (chortos) )
There's some rich imagery going on here in a spare account- the convivial atmosphere, the green grass, the groups looking like flower or vegetable beds- and eating and being like satisfied cows on finishing.
There are 12 basket fulls left over. The account finishes with a record of the number of men who were there- 5000.
This is an incredible number for an event that no one knew was going to be an event before it happened. Surely it represents more than just the curious people of Capernaum- (though a fair proportion of the town must have been there. Young sons perhaps, were sent off to run to relatives and friends in surrounding towns (there would have been quite a few in this fertile area- I think Edersheim says Galilee would have had a fair population at this time)) and let them know that Jesus was on the move. For these people, at this time, he was the main event.
As they walk to their various villages, after being fed (in a highly satisfactory manner), what were their conversations?
It would seem from some of the Greek- there spirits would have been uplifted. Without knowing, they had experienced the rule of God come near- and to perhaps temper some of my response to the New York Number 1 best seller The Shack, the picture that is presented is not one of an austere God- but one of abundance and fullness- like a bbq with good friends and food, like a cow chewing the cud contentedly after it has eaten well.
Either way it would seem that people can be suspicious- as Jesus pointed out- some thought John's asceticism was suspect ('he has a demon') – and when Jesus came with some of the above feel- 'look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!” (Luke 7)
I imagine the looking up into heaven is important. Perhaps Jesus always did this before a meal (what was the tradition among the Jews?) - does seem to say, this is not a solo act- acknowledging that all good things come from the Father.
After this, the big miracle- with no mention by Mark how amazing it was- or how amazing people in the crowds had found it.
Everybody eats and has their fill (echortasthesan- Z &G- satisfy with food, orig. only of feeding animals with e.g. hay (chortos) )
There's some rich imagery going on here in a spare account- the convivial atmosphere, the green grass, the groups looking like flower or vegetable beds- and eating and being like satisfied cows on finishing.
There are 12 basket fulls left over. The account finishes with a record of the number of men who were there- 5000.
This is an incredible number for an event that no one knew was going to be an event before it happened. Surely it represents more than just the curious people of Capernaum- (though a fair proportion of the town must have been there. Young sons perhaps, were sent off to run to relatives and friends in surrounding towns (there would have been quite a few in this fertile area- I think Edersheim says Galilee would have had a fair population at this time)) and let them know that Jesus was on the move. For these people, at this time, he was the main event.
As they walk to their various villages, after being fed (in a highly satisfactory manner), what were their conversations?
It would seem from some of the Greek- there spirits would have been uplifted. Without knowing, they had experienced the rule of God come near- and to perhaps temper some of my response to the New York Number 1 best seller The Shack, the picture that is presented is not one of an austere God- but one of abundance and fullness- like a bbq with good friends and food, like a cow chewing the cud contentedly after it has eaten well.
Either way it would seem that people can be suspicious- as Jesus pointed out- some thought John's asceticism was suspect ('he has a demon') – and when Jesus came with some of the above feel- 'look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!” (Luke 7)
Convivial flower beds- 6:37-40
Surely Jesus must have known this would send them spinning. They reply, are we to go away and spend two hundred denarii on bread and give it to them to eat?” The NIV has eight months of a man's wages. Jesus ignores this and tells them to go and see how many loaves they have. I don't know how hard they looked- was it a 'look to keep Jesus happy look'? Or was the group of 5000 men- and presumably at least a couple of thousand women, all out there with no food- due to the rushed nature of their arrival? They find five – and two fish, then- kai epataxan autois anaklinai pantas sumposia sumposia epi tw chlwpw chortw. kai anepesan prasiai prasiai kata hekaton kai kata pentekonta.
and he commanded them all to recline* in parties upon the green grass. And they lay down* /took their place like orderly plots of flower or vegetable beds, in groups of hundreds and fifties.
*both these words are used for taking your place at a meal- reclining for a meal.
That may be an over- translation- certainly the NIV or Phillips or NRSV don't include this part of the description. France (p17) has looking like rows of vegetables.
(p267) A sumposion is a group of people eating or (more commonly) drinking together, and suggests a relaxed, even convivial atmosphere; sumposia sumposia is distributive, 'in parties'. prasiai is literally a garden plot or flower bed and is not elsewhere used to describe people, so that prasiai prasiai (similarly distributive, 'in rows') offers a remarkably visual impression of the scene, with men lined up in groups like plots of vegetables on the green grass.
He goes on and mentions that in a Jewish context meals were generally taken seated.
All that definitely adds to a reading of the passage in English. Once again I think we have an example of an event vividly etched into Peter's memory (not surprisingly).
and he commanded them all to recline* in parties upon the green grass. And they lay down* /took their place like orderly plots of flower or vegetable beds, in groups of hundreds and fifties.
*both these words are used for taking your place at a meal- reclining for a meal.
That may be an over- translation- certainly the NIV or Phillips or NRSV don't include this part of the description. France (p17) has looking like rows of vegetables.
(p267) A sumposion is a group of people eating or (more commonly) drinking together, and suggests a relaxed, even convivial atmosphere; sumposia sumposia is distributive, 'in parties'. prasiai is literally a garden plot or flower bed and is not elsewhere used to describe people, so that prasiai prasiai (similarly distributive, 'in rows') offers a remarkably visual impression of the scene, with men lined up in groups like plots of vegetables on the green grass.
He goes on and mentions that in a Jewish context meals were generally taken seated.
All that definitely adds to a reading of the passage in English. Once again I think we have an example of an event vividly etched into Peter's memory (not surprisingly).
Spellbound- 6:30-37
Jesus has compassion on them- for they were like sheep without a shepherd. I don't think I often think this way. There are probably many people around here like that- the salvos seem to be tapping into that at the moment. I wonder how the worldview differs between a typical first century jew and a 21st century australian.
And they get to sit and listen to Jesus teach them many things. He held them- perhaps the rock band thing not too bad an analogy- a bit spellbound. It would be so good to be transported back there and be in the crowd and hear the 'many things' that Jesus was teaching them. Yet for many or most they did not get the thrust of what he was saying- or if they did, chose not to apply it.
There is still the same fascination today with 'great teachers'. They draw great crowds of people who probably often don't put into practice what they say- the mega church phenomena seems to thrive on it. Probably points to a shepherdless like state among many christians- where they (we) could be far more active in seeking Jesus as the shepherd of our souls- and could then be active in both being a shepherd to others and helping them be a shepherd to others. (Hebrew's author's frustration at the spiritual immaturity of those he was writing to).
As is often the case in spellbound moments- they last longer than you think- perhaps the disciples weren't they only ones that 'awakened' to find the sun low in the west, and their minds came back from wherever they were to basic practicalities that the late hour meant. The disciples think that Jesus needs to be organised- and go to help him understand. But there sensibleness gets turned on its head- it will be the spellbound world which will continue.
o de apokritheis eipen autois, Dote autois umeis fagein. “But responding (or answering) he said to them, You give them something to eat.” Bit of a classic- the 'but' is 'de' which is not a particularly strong but- so (greek guru's may correct me here) its sort of this understated 'but', which must have felt anything but that to the disciples. They've just come back from small preaching tours- where I imagine they experienced much excitement as well as trepidation as they became more than just 'hearing learners' but also 'doing learners' (mathetes- 1 one who engages in learning through instruction from another, pupil, apprentice
2, one who is rather constantly associated with someone who has a pedagogical reputation or a particular set of views, disciple, adherent (BDAG)
the related verb (is that the cognate verb?) is manthanw- which means 'I am learning' or 'I learn'.)
They don't even have time for a proper debrief until the crowd intrudes- they've reverted back to the hearing learners in the face of the master- these sort of numbers are his domain, they merely provide aid by pointing out the time- but Jesus does not have this construct in his head. His solution to the problem they bring is for them to directly fix it- You (emphatic) give them something to eat. (for your information Kyle, in Greek, the verb contains what person it is within itself- there is no need for a separate word for a personal pronoun to be used in the sentence- so 'trekw' means 'I run', 'trekeis' means 'you run', and 'trekei' means 'he, she or it runs'. If you want to draw attention to the person doing the action, you can include a personal pronoun- and this is called an emphatic use. So where Jesus says in John, 'before Abraham was, I am!' , instead of just using the word eimi, which means I am, John uses (or Jesus- but he may have been speaking in aramaic) Egw eimi. The same as all the other 'I am' statements in John. - as a further aside, let me give you the three definitions for trekw from the dictionary that all the experts look at, 1. to make rapid linear movement, run, rush, advance
2. to make effort to advance spiritually or intellectually, exert oneself
3. to proceed quickly and without restraint, progress
I think the quickly part can often get left out when you are trekking)
And they get to sit and listen to Jesus teach them many things. He held them- perhaps the rock band thing not too bad an analogy- a bit spellbound. It would be so good to be transported back there and be in the crowd and hear the 'many things' that Jesus was teaching them. Yet for many or most they did not get the thrust of what he was saying- or if they did, chose not to apply it.
There is still the same fascination today with 'great teachers'. They draw great crowds of people who probably often don't put into practice what they say- the mega church phenomena seems to thrive on it. Probably points to a shepherdless like state among many christians- where they (we) could be far more active in seeking Jesus as the shepherd of our souls- and could then be active in both being a shepherd to others and helping them be a shepherd to others. (Hebrew's author's frustration at the spiritual immaturity of those he was writing to).
As is often the case in spellbound moments- they last longer than you think- perhaps the disciples weren't they only ones that 'awakened' to find the sun low in the west, and their minds came back from wherever they were to basic practicalities that the late hour meant. The disciples think that Jesus needs to be organised- and go to help him understand. But there sensibleness gets turned on its head- it will be the spellbound world which will continue.
o de apokritheis eipen autois, Dote autois umeis fagein. “But responding (or answering) he said to them, You give them something to eat.” Bit of a classic- the 'but' is 'de' which is not a particularly strong but- so (greek guru's may correct me here) its sort of this understated 'but', which must have felt anything but that to the disciples. They've just come back from small preaching tours- where I imagine they experienced much excitement as well as trepidation as they became more than just 'hearing learners' but also 'doing learners' (mathetes- 1 one who engages in learning through instruction from another, pupil, apprentice
2, one who is rather constantly associated with someone who has a pedagogical reputation or a particular set of views, disciple, adherent (BDAG)
the related verb (is that the cognate verb?) is manthanw- which means 'I am learning' or 'I learn'.)
They don't even have time for a proper debrief until the crowd intrudes- they've reverted back to the hearing learners in the face of the master- these sort of numbers are his domain, they merely provide aid by pointing out the time- but Jesus does not have this construct in his head. His solution to the problem they bring is for them to directly fix it- You (emphatic) give them something to eat. (for your information Kyle, in Greek, the verb contains what person it is within itself- there is no need for a separate word for a personal pronoun to be used in the sentence- so 'trekw' means 'I run', 'trekeis' means 'you run', and 'trekei' means 'he, she or it runs'. If you want to draw attention to the person doing the action, you can include a personal pronoun- and this is called an emphatic use. So where Jesus says in John, 'before Abraham was, I am!' , instead of just using the word eimi, which means I am, John uses (or Jesus- but he may have been speaking in aramaic) Egw eimi. The same as all the other 'I am' statements in John. - as a further aside, let me give you the three definitions for trekw from the dictionary that all the experts look at, 1. to make rapid linear movement, run, rush, advance
2. to make effort to advance spiritually or intellectually, exert oneself
3. to proceed quickly and without restraint, progress
I think the quickly part can often get left out when you are trekking)
Tuesday, May 18, 2010
Groupies- 6:33-34
Jesus take on this mood, was that they were like sheep without a shepherd. He has compassion on them- and a part of that seems to be because he recognises a futility in their lives. They're a bit directionless. He's made a stir by teaching in a way they have not heard, driving demons out of people and doing miraculous healings- and they're running after him like a rock band's groupies (except with less loyalty- the fame seems to be the thing, not the substance behind the man- although in that there probably not that different to groupies).
So the disciples needs here, give way to the needs of the more needy. A pretty good example of the need for action and response.
Perhaps the silence surrounding what happened on their little adventures is another pointer towards the authenticity of the account. There are no trips off to Germany and the goths all becoming followers – in a sort of Asterix and Obelix adventure. It fits.
I wonder if Peter's personality was part of it- not wanting to trumpet his own achievements (he seemed to have a keen awareness of some of his shortcomings- Go away from me Lord – I imagine master or sir would actually be the better translation here- 'for I am a sinful man'. And three years with a man who you looked up to like no other- who was often going on about letting the children come to him- unless you accept God's rule like one of these you can't enter into it, the first shall be last and the last first, the meek shall inherit the earth, having your feet washed by him. And then Peter's own story- so publicly disowning him- and then the grace he received in being restored- all that would leave its mark.
So the disciples needs here, give way to the needs of the more needy. A pretty good example of the need for action and response.
Perhaps the silence surrounding what happened on their little adventures is another pointer towards the authenticity of the account. There are no trips off to Germany and the goths all becoming followers – in a sort of Asterix and Obelix adventure. It fits.
I wonder if Peter's personality was part of it- not wanting to trumpet his own achievements (he seemed to have a keen awareness of some of his shortcomings- Go away from me Lord – I imagine master or sir would actually be the better translation here- 'for I am a sinful man'. And three years with a man who you looked up to like no other- who was often going on about letting the children come to him- unless you accept God's rule like one of these you can't enter into it, the first shall be last and the last first, the meek shall inherit the earth, having your feet washed by him. And then Peter's own story- so publicly disowning him- and then the grace he received in being restored- all that would leave its mark.
Desert inclinations- 6:30-33
From here we are back to the disciples returning from their their preaching tour. And Mark doesn't give us an insight into how it went for them- events overtake their return. We do hear that they reported back all that they had done and taught. There's a review time there. Practical experience pretty hard to beat in terms of a teaching method.
But while they are trying to have this review time (presumably in the house in Capernaum), there are many people coming and going. So much so that they did not even have a chance to eat. So Jesus says to come to a deserted place and rest awhile.
Would this have been a natural response for any 1st Century Jew? - The desert place bit. I imagine that in one sense people were on the whole more outdoors people than now. To get anywhere you had to walk or ride- no hopping into the car, to go from one air conditioned building to another.
Jesus was forced out into these areas on account of his popularity earlier on. He also sought them out alone, early in the morning to pray. So I suppose we don't fully know- but I would imagine that Jesus had gone to places like this for much of his life at different points. Perhaps after a long day in the shed (how would have this sort of business worked in a place like Nazareth? Would he have often taken his tools with him? or predominantly done things at his own place- or would there have been a separate premises for the business?) he would go out walking the hills for the next two hours- perhaps times as a teenager camping out with friends- it seems like a pretty natural response for him (as well as the necessity bit) with the disciples.
Once again they are off in a boat. And in a bit of an insight into the mood of Capernaum- people see them go (and many recognise them)- and a whole lot of people take off on foot. The NRSV says they hurried there on foot- but that doesn't really seem to capture it- they all ran there (and get there ahead of them) – Mustn't of been that far away. Like when the Queen came to Ballarat and I wanted to see her- but we were doing something with Fusion and had to pack up and take a trailer somewhere- Got in the car and went speeding off to see if we could catch a glimpse.
But while they are trying to have this review time (presumably in the house in Capernaum), there are many people coming and going. So much so that they did not even have a chance to eat. So Jesus says to come to a deserted place and rest awhile.
Would this have been a natural response for any 1st Century Jew? - The desert place bit. I imagine that in one sense people were on the whole more outdoors people than now. To get anywhere you had to walk or ride- no hopping into the car, to go from one air conditioned building to another.
Jesus was forced out into these areas on account of his popularity earlier on. He also sought them out alone, early in the morning to pray. So I suppose we don't fully know- but I would imagine that Jesus had gone to places like this for much of his life at different points. Perhaps after a long day in the shed (how would have this sort of business worked in a place like Nazareth? Would he have often taken his tools with him? or predominantly done things at his own place- or would there have been a separate premises for the business?) he would go out walking the hills for the next two hours- perhaps times as a teenager camping out with friends- it seems like a pretty natural response for him (as well as the necessity bit) with the disciples.
Once again they are off in a boat. And in a bit of an insight into the mood of Capernaum- people see them go (and many recognise them)- and a whole lot of people take off on foot. The NRSV says they hurried there on foot- but that doesn't really seem to capture it- they all ran there (and get there ahead of them) – Mustn't of been that far away. Like when the Queen came to Ballarat and I wanted to see her- but we were doing something with Fusion and had to pack up and take a trailer somewhere- Got in the car and went speeding off to see if we could catch a glimpse.
Dangerous questions
The interlude is over- the lens focuses back in on Jesus and the returning disciples. So why put a sandwich here?- its obviously quite intentional on Mark's part. It shows the news of Jesus filtering through all stratas of society, it shows people guessing about who he might be (I think both Jesus and Mark – (and I would think Peter too) encourage such an approach). The questions 'Who do people say that I am? ... But who do you say that I am?” on Jesus part, and the disciples, “Who then is this?” Are open invitations- and also, in a way, pegs for Mark's account.
Here we have had the secular ruler of the region asking this question- and then Mark goes on to tell us a back story about the great man John- who illustrates that it can be a dangerous question. John stakes his all in the end, on Jesus being the messiah- more powerful than him- worthy of great honour- who would baptise with the Holy Spirit rather than water. In view of his coming, he told people to repent- an appropriate response to this coming is to get your morality as sorted out as you can- And in the cells of Herod's palace that got him killed.
Antipas's father- the Herod from who the other Herod's took their name (as well as many of their morals) attempted to kill Jesus when he heard about him – a king that astrologers from far east came to honour. He was paranoid about potential rivals- so he killed all the infants of Bethlehem born around that time frame just to make sure. And though they're not really getting the right end of the stick and their knowledge was small- if it were greater, I imagine the response would be the same. Because it was a threat. It was subversive. A different kind of rule that went on to topple the Roman Empire (albeit a conquest where much of the previous culture existed beside the new and also influenced it).
A world (or rule) away from the intrigues of the Herod household.
Here we have had the secular ruler of the region asking this question- and then Mark goes on to tell us a back story about the great man John- who illustrates that it can be a dangerous question. John stakes his all in the end, on Jesus being the messiah- more powerful than him- worthy of great honour- who would baptise with the Holy Spirit rather than water. In view of his coming, he told people to repent- an appropriate response to this coming is to get your morality as sorted out as you can- And in the cells of Herod's palace that got him killed.
Antipas's father- the Herod from who the other Herod's took their name (as well as many of their morals) attempted to kill Jesus when he heard about him – a king that astrologers from far east came to honour. He was paranoid about potential rivals- so he killed all the infants of Bethlehem born around that time frame just to make sure. And though they're not really getting the right end of the stick and their knowledge was small- if it were greater, I imagine the response would be the same. Because it was a threat. It was subversive. A different kind of rule that went on to topple the Roman Empire (albeit a conquest where much of the previous culture existed beside the new and also influenced it).
A world (or rule) away from the intrigues of the Herod household.
Saturday, May 8, 2010
John, The greatest
Upon hearing of their masters death, his disciples come and take the body and bury it in a tomb. And an important chapter is closed. Somewhere else Jesus says that you don't get men any better than John (I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kngdom of God is greater than he- Lk 7:28). This verse draws particular attention to the closing of one chapter and the inaugeration of the next. John was the forerunner standing firmly in a long tradition of men of Yahweh- a prophet in the classical mode- a good man- the best of fallen men; and yet now as God's rule entered into this fallen realm in a new and previously unexperienced way, the very least of people under or in this rule, would be greater than John- new creatures- children of God, brothers and sisters (and mums and dads?) of Jesus.
Snake mother
Herod's (Antipas) having his birthday dinner for the nobility- (courtiers – sg) the senior offices of the army, and for the first men of Galilee (hoi prowtoi- Z &G leading men). I wonder who this last group included- Saducees? Or were they not Jews at all. I wonder what the proportion of Jews to non Jews was in Palestine at the time... The Romans like to govern- but not without input from the locals in many places- the Sanhedrin here in Palestine. It must have been a bit atypical- the Jews were a singular people. But the Sanhedrin was down south in Jerusalem.
Can't imagine too many particularly pious people at a party like this.
There all reclining at table and the daughter comes into dance and pleases them all with her dancing. Then comes the silly offer- ( who knows what was going through Herod's head). But the offer is accompanied with a strong oath- so that when it comes back and its not actually something that Herod thinks is a good idea at all- He doesn't have the courage to do the right thing and break his oaths- but is bound on an increasingly evil course by his public stupidity- the greater crime in his eyes was not to lose face.
Who you let influence you... Whoever the daughter is here- she was not choosing at all well- her mother was a snake.
How long was Herod deeply grieved for? The shame of the night before- I suppose some people repent- others live with guilt- and others give themselves to it so that the shame is eventually drowned out.
Can't imagine too many particularly pious people at a party like this.
There all reclining at table and the daughter comes into dance and pleases them all with her dancing. Then comes the silly offer- ( who knows what was going through Herod's head). But the offer is accompanied with a strong oath- so that when it comes back and its not actually something that Herod thinks is a good idea at all- He doesn't have the courage to do the right thing and break his oaths- but is bound on an increasingly evil course by his public stupidity- the greater crime in his eyes was not to lose face.
Who you let influence you... Whoever the daughter is here- she was not choosing at all well- her mother was a snake.
How long was Herod deeply grieved for? The shame of the night before- I suppose some people repent- others live with guilt- and others give themselves to it so that the shame is eventually drowned out.
A stupid offer 6:17ff
Herod has imprisoned John on account of his (Mark specifically points out here- that she is not actually his wife- but his brothers) wife- who had taken a dislike to John because of his fearlessness in publicly telling Herod that it was not lawful for him to have his brothers wife. It must have been an outrage to all pious Jews and raised the indignation of many not so pious- to have a ruler over them with Jewish heritage so flagrantly flout 'the law'. It was obviously a topic that Herodias did not want to be broached and unfortunately for John she wanted him killed and could use her position to make this happen. The whole thing is a very ugly picture. Why on earth would you say to someone ask me anything you wish for – up to half my kingdom and I will give it to you. She was his daughter- so I suppose it wasn't just anyone he was offering this to- but is there a precedent for this sort of thing- is Antipas being original (originally stupid) or were there stories he would have known about... What sort of dance does Herodiados (in the greek- is that just the genitive of Herodias? could be- not very original with their naming in that family. ) I've heard some people say it was a risque dance (Jen back at Uni)- I've just read France- he seems to say this would be a possibility given that the party would have been an all male affair- He also suggests drunkeness for Herod's actions- which definitely fits. Says the up to half my kingdom a 'traditional hyperbole – Est 5:3, 6: 7:2 & 1 Ki 13:8) So the Esther reference was from a Persian King- the 1 kings one is from the man of God from Judah who gets killed by a lion after he was tricked by another prophet into eating and drinking when God had told him not to. And then that prophet goes and gets the body and mourns for him- telling his sons to bury him in the same grave as this man when he dies- How weird is that? Just prior to this the prophet who was tricked, told Jereboam when he offered to give him a gift- “if you give me half your kingdom, I will not go in with you; nor will I food or drink water......”
France says there maybe a scribal error in the description of the dancer as Herod's daughter- different to Matthew's account where he says Herodias's daughter- could be Salome- who later went on to marry Phillip- who used to be her mother's husband... One corrupted family.
The word for kingdom is basileias.
2 territory ruled by a king, kingdom. - the more usual usage is- 1 the act of ruling- a, gener. kingship, royal power, royal rule
b, esp. of God's rule the royal reign of God (usually rendered 'kingdom of God', and oft. understood as royal realm but with dilution of the primary component of reigning activity), a chiefly eschatological concept, beginning to appear in the prophets, elaborated in apocalyptic passages (egs) and taught by Jesus.
Two pages in Vines excellent.
Not sure BDAG is right- that it is a chiefly eschatological concept. Schweizer thought it was. Certainly contains that- and perhaps in the Old Testament it was predominantly that- definitely would be in the apocalyptic literature. Jesus talked about the kingdom as both now and not yet at different times- but what he starts proclaiming is that this once future rule has become present- that is actually his chief message – along with the need for a response to that- in a nutshell. “The time is fulfilled, kingdom of God has come near/ is at hand, repent and believe in the good news.”
France says there maybe a scribal error in the description of the dancer as Herod's daughter- different to Matthew's account where he says Herodias's daughter- could be Salome- who later went on to marry Phillip- who used to be her mother's husband... One corrupted family.
The word for kingdom is basileias.
2 territory ruled by a king, kingdom. - the more usual usage is- 1 the act of ruling- a, gener. kingship, royal power, royal rule
b, esp. of God's rule the royal reign of God (usually rendered 'kingdom of God', and oft. understood as royal realm but with dilution of the primary component of reigning activity), a chiefly eschatological concept, beginning to appear in the prophets, elaborated in apocalyptic passages (egs) and taught by Jesus.
Two pages in Vines excellent.
Not sure BDAG is right- that it is a chiefly eschatological concept. Schweizer thought it was. Certainly contains that- and perhaps in the Old Testament it was predominantly that- definitely would be in the apocalyptic literature. Jesus talked about the kingdom as both now and not yet at different times- but what he starts proclaiming is that this once future rule has become present- that is actually his chief message – along with the need for a response to that- in a nutshell. “The time is fulfilled, kingdom of God has come near/ is at hand, repent and believe in the good news.”
Back to the Sandwich 6:14ff
I was thinking of just skipping through this story about John the baptist- it seems like a fairly long interlude (especially for Mark)- but I've just been reading through it in Greek (that sounds far more impressive than it is – the amount of understanding I have when reading through it is not like normal reading) and there are interesting things here. One is the contrast with another 'king' and his family and their family values. Another is with the impressiveness of John the Baptist.
For awhile here the lens pans back from Jesus and his immediate circle. Jesus is causing a stir in the land- from the highest levels of society down. And there a few different theories about him- The guilty conscience of Herod sides with those that said it was John the Baptist back from the dead- others said it was Elijah, others 'a prophet like one of the prophets'. None of these guesses seems too bad- They're probably about as close as you can get in the Jews collective experience. There's a whiff of one of the prophets of old (they don't appear any more- with the exception of John the Baptist- he was like that too) But with such power- hence the comparisons to Elijah. And if Elijah is showing up again that would increase messianic expectation (strong since 400 BC?). The question of the disciples- why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?- is a good one.
Malachi 4:5 – Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord (Yhwh) comes. He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse.
- That's the very last sentence in Malachi- the last sentence in our old testament- where did it fit in for the Jews.
For awhile here the lens pans back from Jesus and his immediate circle. Jesus is causing a stir in the land- from the highest levels of society down. And there a few different theories about him- The guilty conscience of Herod sides with those that said it was John the Baptist back from the dead- others said it was Elijah, others 'a prophet like one of the prophets'. None of these guesses seems too bad- They're probably about as close as you can get in the Jews collective experience. There's a whiff of one of the prophets of old (they don't appear any more- with the exception of John the Baptist- he was like that too) But with such power- hence the comparisons to Elijah. And if Elijah is showing up again that would increase messianic expectation (strong since 400 BC?). The question of the disciples- why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?- is a good one.
Malachi 4:5 – Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord (Yhwh) comes. He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse.
- That's the very last sentence in Malachi- the last sentence in our old testament- where did it fit in for the Jews.
FF Bruce on Antipas
From FF Bruce's History of the New Testament p27
How well Antipas served Rome's interests may be gauged in part from the absence of revolt or open unrest on any serious scale in the two regions of his tetrarchy for over 40 years. The troubles which beset Judaea when it became a Roman province in AD 6 do not appear to have affected Galilee or Peraea, even though Judas, who led the revolt in Judaea at this time, was in some sense a Galiliaean, according to both Luke and Josephus.
Although Antipas throughout the whole of his public career had no higher title than tetrarch, his subjects informally called him 'king', especially (no doubt) when they spoke in Aramaic, in which malka is a term with a wider range of meaning than Latin rex or even Greek basileus. This looser usage is reflected in the Gospel of Mark, who (followed by Matthew) calls him “King Herod”; Luke, Josephus, speaks of him as “Herod the tetrarch”.
Antipas was the ablest of Herod's sons. Like his father, he was a patron of Hellenistic culture and a great builder. His chief building enterprise was the city of Tiberias, on the west shore of the Lake of Galilee, which he named in honour of the Emperor Tiberius (c. 22) It was a predominantly Gentile city; since it was built on the site of a cemetery, Anipas's Jewish subjects regarded it as unclean. But Jewish scruples were overcome later, and Tiberias became a famous seat of rabbinical learning. ...
...also rebuilt Sepphoris- destroyed in fighting in following the revolt of 4 BC- this was very close to Nazareth.
How well Antipas served Rome's interests may be gauged in part from the absence of revolt or open unrest on any serious scale in the two regions of his tetrarchy for over 40 years. The troubles which beset Judaea when it became a Roman province in AD 6 do not appear to have affected Galilee or Peraea, even though Judas, who led the revolt in Judaea at this time, was in some sense a Galiliaean, according to both Luke and Josephus.
Although Antipas throughout the whole of his public career had no higher title than tetrarch, his subjects informally called him 'king', especially (no doubt) when they spoke in Aramaic, in which malka is a term with a wider range of meaning than Latin rex or even Greek basileus. This looser usage is reflected in the Gospel of Mark, who (followed by Matthew) calls him “King Herod”; Luke, Josephus, speaks of him as “Herod the tetrarch”.
Antipas was the ablest of Herod's sons. Like his father, he was a patron of Hellenistic culture and a great builder. His chief building enterprise was the city of Tiberias, on the west shore of the Lake of Galilee, which he named in honour of the Emperor Tiberius (c. 22) It was a predominantly Gentile city; since it was built on the site of a cemetery, Anipas's Jewish subjects regarded it as unclean. But Jewish scruples were overcome later, and Tiberias became a famous seat of rabbinical learning. ...
...also rebuilt Sepphoris- destroyed in fighting in following the revolt of 4 BC- this was very close to Nazareth.
Sandwich- 6:14ff
We seem to have a Sandwich here (of which Mark is apparently particularly fond). I wonder where this part of the account came from. Were there people who became followers in Herod's household?- or was it closer to Peter than that. His brother was following John before he started to follow Jesus- either he or Andrew would have known many in John's circle... But it may just have been a common knowledge thing- Many of the goings on of the Herod's would have been common knowledge or become common knowledge- and as a result of the esteem that John was held in- this story would have spread quickly.
So while the disciples are out telling people about the coming kingdom- Mark reminds us that John was killed for declaring such a message. Its a sad story- Herodias's daughter is obviously not well brought up- many rats in the cellars- or in plain sight in the Herod's household.
Sitting above the goings on of the common people- Jesus and the events surrounding him come to the ears of Herod. Tiberius was one of the main fishing centres on the lake- Antipas had spent considerable sums beautifying it- Not a particularly Jewish place I think (need to find out more)- We don't hear of Jesus going here- must have sailed past it many times- and walked somewhere in the vicinity (where would the road go – 10 km away?) Telling, I imagine, that he avoided it- too dangerous- as well perhaps as his mission- sent to the lost sheep of Israel...
So while the disciples are out telling people about the coming kingdom- Mark reminds us that John was killed for declaring such a message. Its a sad story- Herodias's daughter is obviously not well brought up- many rats in the cellars- or in plain sight in the Herod's household.
Sitting above the goings on of the common people- Jesus and the events surrounding him come to the ears of Herod. Tiberius was one of the main fishing centres on the lake- Antipas had spent considerable sums beautifying it- Not a particularly Jewish place I think (need to find out more)- We don't hear of Jesus going here- must have sailed past it many times- and walked somewhere in the vicinity (where would the road go – 10 km away?) Telling, I imagine, that he avoided it- too dangerous- as well perhaps as his mission- sent to the lost sheep of Israel...
Reliance and independence- 6:6b-13
Jesus is quite specific about how the disciples are to travel- we hear of no instructions of what they are to teach, but they are to take nothing but a staff and sandals- no bread, no bag, no money in their belt. Stay in the first house you enter in a town and shake the dust off your feet to any place that will not hear your message- “So they went out and preached that men should change their whole outlook.” (Phillips) – 'ina metanowsin
First time they are sent out- and in Australia we'd have him up for a lack of duty of care. Pretty important lesson for the disciples there about what to rely on- they are basically on their own in the twos- with a message they don't understand all the implications of- but they have the example of Jesus. There is a mixture here of reliance and independence- Special agents with a fair degree of latitude for independent action within a larger mission. Perhaps its interdependent action- they are there in twos.
First time they are sent out- and in Australia we'd have him up for a lack of duty of care. Pretty important lesson for the disciples there about what to rely on- they are basically on their own in the twos- with a message they don't understand all the implications of- but they have the example of Jesus. There is a mixture here of reliance and independence- Special agents with a fair degree of latitude for independent action within a larger mission. Perhaps its interdependent action- they are there in twos.
Sentness- 6:6b-12
From here he goes about among the villages teaching. And then he sends the twelve out in two's with authority over unclean spirits- and with interesting instructions.
To this point the disciples have just been following Jesus around- camping with him, out in the desert places because of his fame, spending time in the crowded house in Capernaum, probably helping with a whole lot of logistical things in order to feed such a group- transport across the lake, What did they sleep on when out in the country- what did they cook with? I imagine some of them were responsible for some of these things. They had been picked by Jesus as apostles- (with close connections to apostellw- sent with a commission) – but up until this point not a lot of sending has happened. They have had many eye opening experiences- I imagine the lake tempest, and pig possession was still fresh in their minds (they may have been for the rest of their lives) – it doesn't seem that long ago they were asking, “Who then is this?” and now they are sent out on a preaching mission- casting out demons and healing people as they go.
They certainly don't have the complete picture- but they also do have a good grounding- having lived with Jesus for how long now? Heard him teach on numerous occasions and had that teaching explained to them in private. There were others such as the man possessed with the legion, who were 'sent' straight away- a living example of the effect of the coming of the rule of God. And then because of the nature of his mission there are others who he tells not to tell anyone what has happened to them. Still- It would seem that 'sentness' is not that far around the corner if you follow Jesus for any length of time. And he is not concerned if you do not have the complete picture.
To this point the disciples have just been following Jesus around- camping with him, out in the desert places because of his fame, spending time in the crowded house in Capernaum, probably helping with a whole lot of logistical things in order to feed such a group- transport across the lake, What did they sleep on when out in the country- what did they cook with? I imagine some of them were responsible for some of these things. They had been picked by Jesus as apostles- (with close connections to apostellw- sent with a commission) – but up until this point not a lot of sending has happened. They have had many eye opening experiences- I imagine the lake tempest, and pig possession was still fresh in their minds (they may have been for the rest of their lives) – it doesn't seem that long ago they were asking, “Who then is this?” and now they are sent out on a preaching mission- casting out demons and healing people as they go.
They certainly don't have the complete picture- but they also do have a good grounding- having lived with Jesus for how long now? Heard him teach on numerous occasions and had that teaching explained to them in private. There were others such as the man possessed with the legion, who were 'sent' straight away- a living example of the effect of the coming of the rule of God. And then because of the nature of his mission there are others who he tells not to tell anyone what has happened to them. Still- It would seem that 'sentness' is not that far around the corner if you follow Jesus for any length of time. And he is not concerned if you do not have the complete picture.
Home town- 6:1-6
Chapter 6
and they left from there, and came (erchetai) into his own home town – patrida- patris 1. a relatively large geographical area associated with one's familial connections and personal life, fatherland, homeland
2. a relatively restricted area as locale of one's immediate family and ancestry, home town, one's own part of the country.
I wonder if a certain amount of time has passed since the happenings of chapter 5.
A homecoming; but Jesus is not welcomed back with open arms. Nazareth sounds as though it was smaller than Capernaum- He was well known here- oukh houtos estin ho tektwn, o wios tes Marias kai adelfos Iakwbou kai Iwsetos kai Iouda kai Simwnos; kai ouk eisin hai adelfai autou hwde pros 'emas
Is this not the Carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon and are not his sisters here with us?
This is a bit of a classic and perhaps shows how well Jesus did incarnation. He had been the tektwn or the son of the tektwn for somewhere around 20 years- and worked for at least 15 of those. This is how he is known- as evidenced by the way his fellow townspeople fit him into the scheme of things- occupation/ family. There does not seem to be any suspicion that Jesus may have turned out like this- We always thought that boy was destined for great things- he always was wise beyond his years- there was that time he healed gertrude's boy. Somehow Jesus the Carpenter was too normal a jewish Carpenter to warrant the possibility- too good a fit to be sprouting such wisdom and doing such deeds of power through his hands. So they took offence at him- sounds very Australian- tall poppy stuff. (Can work the other way too- the hometown/family environment can hold you back- like Harold in Nowra feeling people had this set idea of her and it was hard to 'be' out of that)
Shack quote------ (We routinely disqualify testimony that would plead for extenuation. That is, we are so persuaded of the rightness of our judgement as to invalidate evidence that does not confirm us in it. Nothing deserves to be called truth could ever be arrived at by such a means. -Marilynne Robinson, The Death of Adam).
His family have already had a similar reaction – now the people he grew up with.
Would seem to point to Jesus not doing any deeds of power before his public mission- and not particularly doing any teaching either- maybe no discipling either- what was he up to? Former teachers and mentors of mine would say that he had failed to live up to his potential- been a bit of a disappointment. What exactly was happening when Jesus got baptised?
And in those Nazareth years what was running through Jesus head- did he know at 25 he wasn't ready yet? Still had to reach the flower of manhood- still had to grow in his experience and understanding of his Father?
The preparation is thorough.
Jesus quickly puts his finger on what's going on- (did he know what would happen when he went back? or did he suspect it and not fully know- but went anyway?)
There is a contrast in Nazareth to the amazing events that have come before- here he could do no deed of power, except a few minor healings. He marvelled at/ wondered at there unbelief. Seems pretty significant the effect of lack of faith. What was the root here of Jesus marvelling at the lack of faith. Was it because he knew (and loved) these people he had grown up with- knew there ways and their goodnesses, wanted to share the kingdom with them, was hoping many of those old friends and acquaintances would enter in- and hardly any did- that in this case it was the villagers not living up to their potential?
and they left from there, and came (erchetai) into his own home town – patrida- patris 1. a relatively large geographical area associated with one's familial connections and personal life, fatherland, homeland
2. a relatively restricted area as locale of one's immediate family and ancestry, home town, one's own part of the country.
I wonder if a certain amount of time has passed since the happenings of chapter 5.
A homecoming; but Jesus is not welcomed back with open arms. Nazareth sounds as though it was smaller than Capernaum- He was well known here- oukh houtos estin ho tektwn, o wios tes Marias kai adelfos Iakwbou kai Iwsetos kai Iouda kai Simwnos; kai ouk eisin hai adelfai autou hwde pros 'emas
Is this not the Carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon and are not his sisters here with us?
This is a bit of a classic and perhaps shows how well Jesus did incarnation. He had been the tektwn or the son of the tektwn for somewhere around 20 years- and worked for at least 15 of those. This is how he is known- as evidenced by the way his fellow townspeople fit him into the scheme of things- occupation/ family. There does not seem to be any suspicion that Jesus may have turned out like this- We always thought that boy was destined for great things- he always was wise beyond his years- there was that time he healed gertrude's boy. Somehow Jesus the Carpenter was too normal a jewish Carpenter to warrant the possibility- too good a fit to be sprouting such wisdom and doing such deeds of power through his hands. So they took offence at him- sounds very Australian- tall poppy stuff. (Can work the other way too- the hometown/family environment can hold you back- like Harold in Nowra feeling people had this set idea of her and it was hard to 'be' out of that)
Shack quote------ (We routinely disqualify testimony that would plead for extenuation. That is, we are so persuaded of the rightness of our judgement as to invalidate evidence that does not confirm us in it. Nothing deserves to be called truth could ever be arrived at by such a means. -Marilynne Robinson, The Death of Adam).
His family have already had a similar reaction – now the people he grew up with.
Would seem to point to Jesus not doing any deeds of power before his public mission- and not particularly doing any teaching either- maybe no discipling either- what was he up to? Former teachers and mentors of mine would say that he had failed to live up to his potential- been a bit of a disappointment. What exactly was happening when Jesus got baptised?
And in those Nazareth years what was running through Jesus head- did he know at 25 he wasn't ready yet? Still had to reach the flower of manhood- still had to grow in his experience and understanding of his Father?
The preparation is thorough.
Jesus quickly puts his finger on what's going on- (did he know what would happen when he went back? or did he suspect it and not fully know- but went anyway?)
There is a contrast in Nazareth to the amazing events that have come before- here he could do no deed of power, except a few minor healings. He marvelled at/ wondered at there unbelief. Seems pretty significant the effect of lack of faith. What was the root here of Jesus marvelling at the lack of faith. Was it because he knew (and loved) these people he had grown up with- knew there ways and their goodnesses, wanted to share the kingdom with them, was hoping many of those old friends and acquaintances would enter in- and hardly any did- that in this case it was the villagers not living up to their potential?
Astounded with great utter amazement- 5:41-43
Takes a dead girls hand and says Talitha Cum- immediately the girl gets up and begins to walk about – and not surprisingly those looking on are overcome with amazement (no distinction made here with the family or the disciples). Another direct remembrance from Peter- those words and their effect etched into his memory- so that even though this is a greek work, they still get handed down in the original aramaic they were spoken in.
*kai exestesan [euthus] ekstasei megale
lit, stand outside oneself, be astounded- the euthus is according to Z and G no more than a mere Marcan mannerism here, then ekstasei means utter amazement, megale- great.
They were astounded with great utter amazement
BDAG- they were quite beside themselves with amazement
He tells them to give her something to eat. - how much of the actions were for the little girls benefit- we don't want her becoming a 'freak celebrity'? Surely that was a part of the mix in all this- Jesus concern for her and her family.
What a week for the disciples. Near death experiences from which they are rebuked for being scared, mass pig possession with a tomb wanderer with super human strength sitting calmly at Jesus feet afterwards, a woman cured of a 12 year illness on the way to bringing a 12 year old back from the dead. I wonder if for Peter looking back, the 'Talitha Cum' was bound with the words to Jairus, 'Do not fear only believe'. And for Jairus and his wife- and for the 12 year old girl who would have heard the story from her parents. They experienced this utter amazement-
*kai exestesan [euthus] ekstasei megale
lit, stand outside oneself, be astounded- the euthus is according to Z and G no more than a mere Marcan mannerism here, then ekstasei means utter amazement, megale- great.
They were astounded with great utter amazement
BDAG- they were quite beside themselves with amazement
He tells them to give her something to eat. - how much of the actions were for the little girls benefit- we don't want her becoming a 'freak celebrity'? Surely that was a part of the mix in all this- Jesus concern for her and her family.
What a week for the disciples. Near death experiences from which they are rebuked for being scared, mass pig possession with a tomb wanderer with super human strength sitting calmly at Jesus feet afterwards, a woman cured of a 12 year illness on the way to bringing a 12 year old back from the dead. I wonder if for Peter looking back, the 'Talitha Cum' was bound with the words to Jairus, 'Do not fear only believe'. And for Jairus and his wife- and for the 12 year old girl who would have heard the story from her parents. They experienced this utter amazement-
Do not fear, only believe- 5:35-40
While all this is going on, some people come from Jairus's house to tell him his daughter is dead, so why worry the teacher any more- but Jesus overhears this interaction and says- 'Do not fear, only believe'. I'm sure Jairus' anxiety levels have been high throughout the day- and receiving the news your daughter had died would only heighten this- What do you do with a statement like that from Jesus? Did he just keep on with him- well we'll see this through- or was there some hope at that reply. Its a sentiment that Jesus seems to express often- Do not fear, only believe- and when the disciples are afraid in a force 10 storm- he rebukes them in similar words.
And at this point, somehow Jesus stops the 'Jesus show spectacle', and goes on with just Peter, James and John, and Jairus. How did he do this? There is this strong public property effect that mostly Jesus welcomes or allows- He takes the disciples away to be alone for some recuperation time, sees the crowd coming has compassion on them and allows them to intrude- But here is a boundary for Jairus and his families sake. This is not a sideshow alley act. I imagine he said it with sternness- and that that authority that the people picked up on when first hearing Jesus was in operation here. - A force of character to sway a crowd.
Again when he reaches Jairus's house and is met by a whole lot of mourners- after them laughing at him for telling them she is not dead only sleeping so why weep?- “then he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him and went in where the child was.”
Sounds very much like he took command of the situation once Jairus had asked his help- Doesn't seem to ask Jairus to move his extended family members and mourners out of the room- does it himself- and gives the family space. He tells them she is sleeping (when he knows she's not) is this to try and combat the sensational factor? He 'strictly orders' the family that no one should know this. I wonder what the motive is- there were too many people involved to keep it a secret- Jesus often is downplaying what he does in a sense- going for understatement- but his actions are speaking louder than his admonitions.
And at this point, somehow Jesus stops the 'Jesus show spectacle', and goes on with just Peter, James and John, and Jairus. How did he do this? There is this strong public property effect that mostly Jesus welcomes or allows- He takes the disciples away to be alone for some recuperation time, sees the crowd coming has compassion on them and allows them to intrude- But here is a boundary for Jairus and his families sake. This is not a sideshow alley act. I imagine he said it with sternness- and that that authority that the people picked up on when first hearing Jesus was in operation here. - A force of character to sway a crowd.
Again when he reaches Jairus's house and is met by a whole lot of mourners- after them laughing at him for telling them she is not dead only sleeping so why weep?- “then he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him and went in where the child was.”
Sounds very much like he took command of the situation once Jairus had asked his help- Doesn't seem to ask Jairus to move his extended family members and mourners out of the room- does it himself- and gives the family space. He tells them she is sleeping (when he knows she's not) is this to try and combat the sensational factor? He 'strictly orders' the family that no one should know this. I wonder what the motive is- there were too many people involved to keep it a secret- Jesus often is downplaying what he does in a sense- going for understatement- but his actions are speaking louder than his admonitions.
Blessed public property- 5:25-34
I'd imagine the streets of Capernaum were dusty. How narrow? The large crowd is thronging around him, “followed him and pressed in on him (sunethlibon). Listened to a podcast yesterday on the Holy Spirit from Pete Vol. He was talking about how Jesus became public property- and that this is where the Spirit wants to take us – to places where Mother Teresa or Boenhoeffer have been- to self forgetfulness (made a distinction there with unselfishness).
And there was a woman in the crowd that day that was glad Jesus had decided to do that. 'Since this crowd is not respecting your privacy, I shall take advantage of that and push through the throng to touch your cloak. Ah the 'right' of privacy – it runs deep in me. I don't know if they'd understand in quite the same way in 1st Century palestine the way our individual western world goes about this. I do feel sometimes like descriptions I've heard of American foreign policy- swinging from isolationist to interventionist, times of wanting to be off in the bush, walking on my own or perhaps one or two good friends- not wanting to engage with the problematic world around me- and other times where I do.
She has had a rough run (simply and minimally stated by Mark). Suffering from hemorrhages for 12 years. Had 'endured' (can get a bit of an insight with that word with Teresa- different doctors saying very different things- Naturopaths recommending things they do) much under many physicians, had spent all she had- was no better- in fact had grown worse.
So here's another last ditch effort- what have I got to lose- he might be able to help me (like Jairus, the disciples and the demons- the last group knew very clearly what they had to lose). It it pays off- though not quite like the woman would have hoped. We have too 'euthus's' (immediately's) in quick succession. The woman knows straigtaway that the bleeding has stopped and she has been cured of her disease (she felt in her body). What a feeling that must have been. But there is no time to enjoy it. Jesus immediately feels power has gone out of him, and he stops and questions the crowd. The disciples think this is ridiculous- and politely tell him. But Jesus isn't interested in the slinking away overjoyed approach. The woman is terrified and comes and owns up- And then Jesus gives her a chance of deeper joy- he interprets the event for her- and sends her with grace on her way. “Daughter your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your disease.”
Probably a deliberate choice of words by Jesus- your faith has made you well- get the feeling he's talking about more than just the physical healing. And then as corrective against my private world thinking- he tells her to go in peace and be healed of her disease. She already was healed of her disease- but I think Jesus is saying- your action was legitimate and has my blessing- it was not some impersonal 'power' transaction- that's why I didn't let it go at that though you would have liked that.
And her gratitude can flow in a more helpful direction- Jesus has pointed her to the fact that her healing was or could be more than just physical – more global- when she thinks of this event- it wont be just the coat touching- the thing that will occupy centre stage is the personal interaction with Jesus- unexpected, scary but in the end so very welcome.
There was a whole crowd there- the woman was very aware of that at the start- was seeking privacy among them- and then when called out, it was in front of all those people- but I imagine by the end she's largely forgotten about the crowd (they are still there all around her), and felt like she was having this personal interaction with Jesus- she's in a far more self forgetful place at the end- with heightened joy I would think.
And there was a woman in the crowd that day that was glad Jesus had decided to do that. 'Since this crowd is not respecting your privacy, I shall take advantage of that and push through the throng to touch your cloak. Ah the 'right' of privacy – it runs deep in me. I don't know if they'd understand in quite the same way in 1st Century palestine the way our individual western world goes about this. I do feel sometimes like descriptions I've heard of American foreign policy- swinging from isolationist to interventionist, times of wanting to be off in the bush, walking on my own or perhaps one or two good friends- not wanting to engage with the problematic world around me- and other times where I do.
She has had a rough run (simply and minimally stated by Mark). Suffering from hemorrhages for 12 years. Had 'endured' (can get a bit of an insight with that word with Teresa- different doctors saying very different things- Naturopaths recommending things they do) much under many physicians, had spent all she had- was no better- in fact had grown worse.
So here's another last ditch effort- what have I got to lose- he might be able to help me (like Jairus, the disciples and the demons- the last group knew very clearly what they had to lose). It it pays off- though not quite like the woman would have hoped. We have too 'euthus's' (immediately's) in quick succession. The woman knows straigtaway that the bleeding has stopped and she has been cured of her disease (she felt in her body). What a feeling that must have been. But there is no time to enjoy it. Jesus immediately feels power has gone out of him, and he stops and questions the crowd. The disciples think this is ridiculous- and politely tell him. But Jesus isn't interested in the slinking away overjoyed approach. The woman is terrified and comes and owns up- And then Jesus gives her a chance of deeper joy- he interprets the event for her- and sends her with grace on her way. “Daughter your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your disease.”
Probably a deliberate choice of words by Jesus- your faith has made you well- get the feeling he's talking about more than just the physical healing. And then as corrective against my private world thinking- he tells her to go in peace and be healed of her disease. She already was healed of her disease- but I think Jesus is saying- your action was legitimate and has my blessing- it was not some impersonal 'power' transaction- that's why I didn't let it go at that though you would have liked that.
And her gratitude can flow in a more helpful direction- Jesus has pointed her to the fact that her healing was or could be more than just physical – more global- when she thinks of this event- it wont be just the coat touching- the thing that will occupy centre stage is the personal interaction with Jesus- unexpected, scary but in the end so very welcome.
There was a whole crowd there- the woman was very aware of that at the start- was seeking privacy among them- and then when called out, it was in front of all those people- but I imagine by the end she's largely forgotten about the crowd (they are still there all around her), and felt like she was having this personal interaction with Jesus- she's in a far more self forgetful place at the end- with heightened joy I would think.
Jairus' mindset?- 5:22-24
No teaching happens here. Jairus seizes his opportunity (I wonder how many times he'd heard Jesus before – or had seen him heal people). Was he someone that had posted lookouts, or himself was roaming the shore? He's one of the leaders of the Synagogue- (I presume in Capernaum). What sort of discussions had he had with his fellow leaders? What was going in his own thinking about Jesus? Does that all get sidelined by a family crisis? To thugatrion mou eschatws echei- my little daughter is at the end- or at the point of death (Z &G). And though he still hasn't quite made up his mind about Jesus, he has no choice but to take a chance on him- like the disciples in the boat, or the demons in the man. They roll the dice with hope.
“Come and lay your hands on her on her that she might be saved and might live.”
Interesting- a different approach to the Centurion, he sends a servant, just say the word- Here's a religious leader of the people and he wants him there in person- Is part of this their different worlds – that approach made sense to a soldier- the laying on of hands makes sense to a jew- are there Mosaic regulations about this sort of thing?
Jesus goes with him- and the crowd just follows along to gawk. (Did any leave at that point in respect for the leaders privacy?).
“Come and lay your hands on her on her that she might be saved and might live.”
Interesting- a different approach to the Centurion, he sends a servant, just say the word- Here's a religious leader of the people and he wants him there in person- Is part of this their different worlds – that approach made sense to a soldier- the laying on of hands makes sense to a jew- are there Mosaic regulations about this sort of thing?
Jesus goes with him- and the crowd just follows along to gawk. (Did any leave at that point in respect for the leaders privacy?).
lake criss crossing- 5:21
There's a bit of criss crossing going on here over the lake. I'd say we're in the next day- so they spent a night in the region of the Gerasenes- and then get asked to move on, like when you're travelling around and camp near a park in town, or maybe like Gypsies- Not very high up in the social hierarchy. They had a massive day the previous day- was going across the lake a chance for them all to recuperate a little before going on? There are other times when Jesus does this- and on that occasion the crowds find them pretty quickly- Jesus looks at them and has compassion on them (great word- splangchnizomai). It would seem that they are often getting thwarted- and that plans have to change accordingly. Good to remember this- that they weren't walking around in a vacuum- but often and increasingly like outcasts- and as they went on Jesus had to be careful of where he chose to go (hence Tyre and Sidon?) so as not to be arrested before the opportune time.
He comes back to somewhere near Capernaum and the reception is somewhat different to his last – a demon possessed tomb roving man, to a great crowd. Were there people on the lookout for him as he came back? It would have only been the day before most of them were listening to Jesus, as he sat in the boat and taught them. What about the local economy? I suppose full days of teaching didn't always happen- perhaps not even the majority of the time- were there times where Jesus talked during lunch break- did they have siesta's? I suppose word of mouth, was the way news travelled most of the time in this area.
There were times when the crowd sat and listened to Jesus for three days- and pretty well had no food for that time- How does that work in terms of where they stayed- did they just camp out?
Definitely a world away from modern Australia.
He comes back to somewhere near Capernaum and the reception is somewhat different to his last – a demon possessed tomb roving man, to a great crowd. Were there people on the lookout for him as he came back? It would have only been the day before most of them were listening to Jesus, as he sat in the boat and taught them. What about the local economy? I suppose full days of teaching didn't always happen- perhaps not even the majority of the time- were there times where Jesus talked during lunch break- did they have siesta's? I suppose word of mouth, was the way news travelled most of the time in this area.
There were times when the crowd sat and listened to Jesus for three days- and pretty well had no food for that time- How does that work in terms of where they stayed- did they just camp out?
Definitely a world away from modern Australia.
Monday, March 29, 2010
Another haunting- 5:1-20
You can have demon possessed pigs. The demons released from the man, go into the pigs and send the herd of 2000 mad- they rush down a steep embankment into the sea and drown- the destructive nature of the demonic. The swine herds are probably terrified- in all their years looking after pigs, they've never seen anything like this (who then is this?) Their story is pouring out of them wherever they go (are we into evening now?) Do the people come to check it out the next day? Or are we still in the evening? They see this creepy man that could not be restrained, sitting there sane with Jesus – and they are afraid. The before was scary enough- but in a strange way it was known. But the after... what effected that... its like a storm that becomes still... its not natural... it was beyond their understanding and it would seem experience- demon possession on this level, perhaps didn't just get cured... and the swine – some of them had seen them rush headlong into the sea- others heard of it happening and saw the former demon possessed man sitting there calmly.
Another haunting. Too much for the people of the Gerasenes- they come and begin to beg/exhort/ beseech (parakalein) Jesus to 'go away' from their territory/ district- NRSV neighbourhood. - You are too scary to have in our backyard. That sort of power is too confronting. That unknowness is too much for us to live with. Probably a wiser response than a luke warm one. Certainly one I think the disciples could relate to- they could have shared a story or two with those who came out to see- 'you think that's bad, let us tell you what just happened to us.' And perhaps after that whole experience some of them weren't all that far away from such a response- you are too much for me- you are far too confronting to have so close- I don't want you in my backyard or in my boat.
But if they had such thoughts, they don't act on them, they stay 'with' him, they stay on this venture, where things just seem to get bigger and less contained the more they know. They learn in a way perhaps the author of the words didn't, 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom'.
Reflecting that this is what is missing from the Salvo's Christianity explained feast thing. Coming from a perspective that a panel member expressed- 'I think God has a strongly feminine side, and he created us so that he had lots of children to love and look after'. The disciples weren't feeling that sort of love at this particular time. Sure there are images in the bible that justify such an understanding- Jesus looking upon Jerusalem and sighing and saying how many times he longed to gather them to him like a hen gathers her chicks- but if you stop there you've only got the elephants tail- Grandma God sitting there clucking over everything- And there are plenty of images in the bible that start to give a more complete picture- Isaiah in the throne room, Ezekiel with his psychadelic terrifying images, Moses who couldn't see God's face because that would have destroyed him- and just seeing his back and being in his presence was enough to make his face glow so that the rest of the Israelites were afraid to come near him, Jesus calming the storm, the scene in revelation with the multitudes around the throne.
Still, I suppose the Salvation Army has an empathy with the recovering sinner/ alcoholic/ former prisoner- can rejoice with them that they have been released. But released to what- to be mollycoddled by Grandma God? (at times something akin to this I'm sure- but more like Father God) – but this is just a stage to a more complete restoration and beyond.
The man who had the demons wants to go with Jesus – the same word (parakalei) is used of his asking as the demons asking to go into the pigs- he beseeches, begs Jesus “in order that he might be with him”. He has been released and is grateful for it and wants to learn from this man who has released him- but Jesus sends him straight away, he refuses and says to him, “go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and what mercy he has shown you.” - the nest is not a place for you – you have an experience of the divine to go and share- He does and “everyone was amazed”. Jesus responds to the fearful request to leave- but he leaves this man to go in his stead- who was known in the region – but now would be known for a further and better reason- a living testimony to redemption that the people of the decapolis could accept or not.
God wants us to grow up- and is all about giving us opportunities for that to happen.
I managed to download some podcasts yesterday (have entered into a technological realm where I have never been before), Laurie was making the point the centre of Jesus message was not personal salvation and a ticket to heaven, that that is certainly there, but the centre is that the kingdom has come- this future reality has entered into the present- will you align yourself with this, let it enter you – give yourself up to it, be a leaf on the tree that helps nourish the tree- perhaps helps others to breathe- be wholly available for God's purposes.
Another haunting. Too much for the people of the Gerasenes- they come and begin to beg/exhort/ beseech (parakalein) Jesus to 'go away' from their territory/ district- NRSV neighbourhood. - You are too scary to have in our backyard. That sort of power is too confronting. That unknowness is too much for us to live with. Probably a wiser response than a luke warm one. Certainly one I think the disciples could relate to- they could have shared a story or two with those who came out to see- 'you think that's bad, let us tell you what just happened to us.' And perhaps after that whole experience some of them weren't all that far away from such a response- you are too much for me- you are far too confronting to have so close- I don't want you in my backyard or in my boat.
But if they had such thoughts, they don't act on them, they stay 'with' him, they stay on this venture, where things just seem to get bigger and less contained the more they know. They learn in a way perhaps the author of the words didn't, 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom'.
Reflecting that this is what is missing from the Salvo's Christianity explained feast thing. Coming from a perspective that a panel member expressed- 'I think God has a strongly feminine side, and he created us so that he had lots of children to love and look after'. The disciples weren't feeling that sort of love at this particular time. Sure there are images in the bible that justify such an understanding- Jesus looking upon Jerusalem and sighing and saying how many times he longed to gather them to him like a hen gathers her chicks- but if you stop there you've only got the elephants tail- Grandma God sitting there clucking over everything- And there are plenty of images in the bible that start to give a more complete picture- Isaiah in the throne room, Ezekiel with his psychadelic terrifying images, Moses who couldn't see God's face because that would have destroyed him- and just seeing his back and being in his presence was enough to make his face glow so that the rest of the Israelites were afraid to come near him, Jesus calming the storm, the scene in revelation with the multitudes around the throne.
Still, I suppose the Salvation Army has an empathy with the recovering sinner/ alcoholic/ former prisoner- can rejoice with them that they have been released. But released to what- to be mollycoddled by Grandma God? (at times something akin to this I'm sure- but more like Father God) – but this is just a stage to a more complete restoration and beyond.
The man who had the demons wants to go with Jesus – the same word (parakalei) is used of his asking as the demons asking to go into the pigs- he beseeches, begs Jesus “in order that he might be with him”. He has been released and is grateful for it and wants to learn from this man who has released him- but Jesus sends him straight away, he refuses and says to him, “go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and what mercy he has shown you.” - the nest is not a place for you – you have an experience of the divine to go and share- He does and “everyone was amazed”. Jesus responds to the fearful request to leave- but he leaves this man to go in his stead- who was known in the region – but now would be known for a further and better reason- a living testimony to redemption that the people of the decapolis could accept or not.
God wants us to grow up- and is all about giving us opportunities for that to happen.
I managed to download some podcasts yesterday (have entered into a technological realm where I have never been before), Laurie was making the point the centre of Jesus message was not personal salvation and a ticket to heaven, that that is certainly there, but the centre is that the kingdom has come- this future reality has entered into the present- will you align yourself with this, let it enter you – give yourself up to it, be a leaf on the tree that helps nourish the tree- perhaps helps others to breathe- be wholly available for God's purposes.
"I adjure you by God" - demon.
Orkizw se ton Theon, me me basanises – I adjure you by God, do not torture me.
Seems to say something about the hierarchy of the universe- and when demons come face to face with Jesus they recognise it. The “I adjure you by God” out of a demons mouth is startling. Great fear seems to be the predominant motive- we're in a life or death situation here (interesting to compare this to the disciples – both demons and disciples end up appealing to a higher authority- but the demons have more idea in one sense what they are appealing to- and the power that resides there. That is why they are qualing before the height of the storm in a sense, and trying to avert that, whereas the disciples were most scared afterwards.
There is an appeal to mercy from the demons- (Is this a– we know this is a weakness of our enemy- we'll throw all our dice on this?)
The demons strategically ignore or at least delay on Jesus first command, 'Come out of the man you unclean spirit!” Could they because of the technicality that he wasn't an unclean spirit, but unclean spirits? Then Jesus asks him what his name is- a bit like a teacher disciplining a child where he doesn't know his name- there is no question here of the demon giving a false one- “My name is legion for we are many”
And then they get in and suggest a brer rabbit type of solution- before Jesus can come up with anything worse- don't send us out of the country- send us into the swine- let us enter them.
What are the disciples thinking? Can the swineherds overhear this exchange as well? There is this interaction between two realms that most of the time are very opaque to humans. And the lines seem a bit more clearly drawn for the protaganists, than the corresponding story unfolding on the more 'human' level. There also seem to be interactions between God and man that this 'spiritual' realm finds fairly opaque- “It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to things that have now being announced to you through those who brought you good news by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven- things into which angels long to look! (1 Pet 1:12)”
Seems to say something about the hierarchy of the universe- and when demons come face to face with Jesus they recognise it. The “I adjure you by God” out of a demons mouth is startling. Great fear seems to be the predominant motive- we're in a life or death situation here (interesting to compare this to the disciples – both demons and disciples end up appealing to a higher authority- but the demons have more idea in one sense what they are appealing to- and the power that resides there. That is why they are qualing before the height of the storm in a sense, and trying to avert that, whereas the disciples were most scared afterwards.
There is an appeal to mercy from the demons- (Is this a– we know this is a weakness of our enemy- we'll throw all our dice on this?)
The demons strategically ignore or at least delay on Jesus first command, 'Come out of the man you unclean spirit!” Could they because of the technicality that he wasn't an unclean spirit, but unclean spirits? Then Jesus asks him what his name is- a bit like a teacher disciplining a child where he doesn't know his name- there is no question here of the demon giving a false one- “My name is legion for we are many”
And then they get in and suggest a brer rabbit type of solution- before Jesus can come up with anything worse- don't send us out of the country- send us into the swine- let us enter them.
What are the disciples thinking? Can the swineherds overhear this exchange as well? There is this interaction between two realms that most of the time are very opaque to humans. And the lines seem a bit more clearly drawn for the protaganists, than the corresponding story unfolding on the more 'human' level. There also seem to be interactions between God and man that this 'spiritual' realm finds fairly opaque- “It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to things that have now being announced to you through those who brought you good news by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven- things into which angels long to look! (1 Pet 1:12)”
Twilight zone- 5:1-ff
So are we at twilight? And this man (did they know his reputation before they landed) who howls eerily around the tombs night and day- comes running down (he had seen Jesus from a distance- seems to know immdediately- like he's called out) and bows before him and calls out in a great voice (kraxas fwne megale) NRSV – shouted at the top of his voice- another 'what is there between me and you' question – what have you to do with me, “Jesus, Son of the most High God” - The demons are certainly a long way ahead of the crowds or even the disciples- an hour or so before they were in the boat asking, 'who then is this'? and here we have a strange demon possessed man confidently giving them a pretty comprehensive answer – Son of the most High God. Still, there is hindsight on our side- and this doesn't convey the only begotten bit- but I wonder what the disciples are thinking as they stand on the beach or bank, or secure the boat... It certainly seems to have made an impression (it is not surprising we get this whole day recounted- how could you forget a day like this?) And at some stage with the benefit of hindsight and meditation time- I'd say Peter did put these two things together- perhaps appreciated the irony. Mark I think does.
The fall of angels- 5:1-ff
It reads as though it is the same day. I don't think that feeling of awe and subduedness would have left them by the time they reached the shore. And Jesus steps out of the boat (Exelthontos) and euthus (immediately) something else is happening- a man out of the tombs with an unclean (evil) spirit. So they get the row to take stock (I don't think this would have been enough time) and then a man out of the tombs with an evil spirit comes to meet them. It sounds creepy- and if we are in the same day- it must be right at the end of it- adding to the creepiness. Perhaps normally for the disciples it would have been creepy (how much exposure to demon possession did they have before they met Jesus- he seems to be a bit of a magnet for people who have them- an interesting aside- an awareness there for the demonic forces of the powerful threat in their midst- or can they not help manifesting in the presence of such power and holiness? They are keen to expose him- but can they help exposing themselves? There is a clash of two realms- no question of a peaceful existance between the two- they are an anathema to one another- and one side has switched sides- are they ever haunted by what they have left behind? Falleness in angels seems so much more complete than in humans. We don't know much of their back story- how long were they around before us – does time work a bit differently for them- must; they have not died. Is there any place for demonic repentance? Is this covered by what Jesus says on blaspheming the Holy Spirit in 3: 28-30? It comes on the back of Jesus responding to the charge that – 'He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of demons, he casts out demons'. It doesn't feel like demons do- that to think they might – may misunderstand relations and mechanics between the two sides. That as fully spiritual beings, living in the same sphere as their maker and experiencing him and knowing him in a different and 'immediately fuller'? way than what humans do- when they decided to turn their back on him, and follow Satan- they 'knew' exactly what they were doing- “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt...” (Heb 6:6-ff) This sort of principle- though there is no turning again in this case- and we do not hear of a similar mechanism as Jesus sacrifice for fallen angels. Which I think might because they fall further with greater knowledge of what they do- greater understanding or experience of 'enlightenment', the heavenly gift, the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come. And they are different beings with a different existence to us- the choosing is probably different for them - “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. But now because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time, you will become mute, unable to speak until the day these things occur.” This gives a bit of the picture I think- sort of sums himself up here Gabriel- this is my name- I stand in the presence of God- this is what defines me- and I have been sent- in Greek, messenger and angel are the same word- angelos- this is what I live for – to be sent by the God in whose presence I stand. Their glory may be different as well- Gabriel is not being pompous when he tells Zechariah this- but he also is not someone to be trifled with- the feeling Lewis gets with Centaurs in Narnia. ( I suspect this a far more accurate picture than Frank Peretti's picture in This Present Darkness).
Perhaps Adam and Eve would have more of an idea of what it was like for them- except free will works here a bit differently I think- and Adam and Eve disobeyed and showed a lack of faith- there was a lot they didn't know- whereas this is not the case for the angels- But both parties here were at one point in the will of God and then at the next outside it- where they hadn't been before. Both experience immediate consequences- but initially, the angels fall further. It seems like they only get the one choice- God or not- and to make it against him- goodness is something that goes- and becomes hideous to them- What was a beautiful being that would inspire holy fear, becomes totally corrupted- unrecognisable from what they once were. There is no dialoguing with demons. Which Angel was it that responded to Satan- the Lord rebuke you Satan. And Jesus himself when tempted by Satan, doesn't debate with him- but responds by quoting scripture. There is no appealing to a demons better side- they have completely left it behind and do not have one.
Just read 2 Peter, which relates to some of this.
And also looked at 1 Peter 3:19 where he states that Jesus went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark......” Definitely not with him here.
Perhaps Adam and Eve would have more of an idea of what it was like for them- except free will works here a bit differently I think- and Adam and Eve disobeyed and showed a lack of faith- there was a lot they didn't know- whereas this is not the case for the angels- But both parties here were at one point in the will of God and then at the next outside it- where they hadn't been before. Both experience immediate consequences- but initially, the angels fall further. It seems like they only get the one choice- God or not- and to make it against him- goodness is something that goes- and becomes hideous to them- What was a beautiful being that would inspire holy fear, becomes totally corrupted- unrecognisable from what they once were. There is no dialoguing with demons. Which Angel was it that responded to Satan- the Lord rebuke you Satan. And Jesus himself when tempted by Satan, doesn't debate with him- but responds by quoting scripture. There is no appealing to a demons better side- they have completely left it behind and do not have one.
Just read 2 Peter, which relates to some of this.
And also looked at 1 Peter 3:19 where he states that Jesus went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark......” Definitely not with him here.
Sailing speeds on the sea of Galilee? - 5:1
How long would it take to sail across the lake? The lake is 21 kilometres long and 11 kilometres wide. So if Gergasa were at the south end of the lake it would be about 20 kilometres in a straight line and if it were in the other spot at the north west area of the lake it looks like it would be somewhere around 6. I can't imagine they'd sail any faster than the puffin- I'd think a bit slower. 20 k's would have to take at least 2 hours wouldn't it? 6 a bit under an hour? Did the wind come back up after the squall? It had been commanded to cease- did they row the rest of the way?
How long does evening last? What sort of time frame would that cover for them?
I suppose if it was summer and you left at 5 and got there at 8 there would still be enough light.
Do swine feed at that sort of hour? Has Mark spliced two trips together- or are we still in the same day as the parable teaching and the storm?
How long does evening last? What sort of time frame would that cover for them?
I suppose if it was summer and you left at 5 and got there at 8 there would still be enough light.
Do swine feed at that sort of hour? Has Mark spliced two trips together- or are we still in the same day as the parable teaching and the storm?
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